We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning • Hacker News Board

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#121

Post by chadcmulligan » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 5:23 AM UTC

Some of the reasons why petrol won:

There was no electric grid to speak of - even now there is concern the grid can't support all EV's, once you were outside the cities (and there weren't many back then) the grid was spotty. The miracle of being able to pour some cheap liquid in an engine and drive for miles is a considerable achievement.

Lead acid batteries weren't very good and were expensive (and still are) and don't last long compared to petrol engines.

Electric motors were big then - it was only rare earth magnets that made them small enough to consider using in cars at high speed/ranges.

Its always been possible to make a small electric commuter car to drive round at 30mph for short distances but even today there are none like this, because people want to take their cars on the road on the weekend without having to worry. In the 1900's it was the call of the open road and cheap travel (petrol was very cheap then) that made petrol win.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#122

Post by masonic » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 5:36 AM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #93

maxxxxx wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think steam engines prototyped a lot of the needed technology like lubrication, manufacturing of precision shafts and heat resistance which then could be applied to the gas engine.

There's an interesting example of technological synergy at the dawn of the steam engine industry. To build an effective steam engine, you need a precisely ground piston and a precisely bored cylinder, otherwise you can't get useful working pressures. Grinding the piston is laborious but straightforward - you just need two centers and a cutting tool to achieve a rotationally symmetrical part. Boring the cylinder is mu…

Recursion.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#123

Post by masonic » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 5:38 AM UTC

elamje wrote: post #77

bdamm wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A rotary engine is not the same as a radial engine. Radial engines go in airplanes, rotary engines go in Mazdas.

Rotary engines typically end up in smaller aircraft, like kit-planes and such. But yes, I've heard the rx-8 uses one.

The entire RX series used Wankel motors.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#124

Post by sitkack » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 5:52 AM UTC

adrianmonk wrote: post #111

> Early electric cars performed better in cities than internal combustion vehicles This article talks a lot about cars around 1900. In the US in 1900, 60% of the population lived in rural areas and only 40% lived in cities. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_in_the_United_Sta... ) So working well in rural areas was probably a more important concern. A product that works OK for all your potential customer…

85% of all the income was probably made in cities.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#125

Post by fragmede » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 5:59 AM UTC

chadcmulligan wrote: post #121

Some of the reasons why petrol won: There was no electric grid to speak of - even now there is concern the grid can't support all EV's, once you were outside the cities (and there weren't many back then) the grid was spotty. The miracle of being able to pour some cheap liquid in an engine and drive for miles is a considerable achievement. Lead acid batteries weren't very good and were expensive (and still are) and do…

> Its always been possible to make a small electric commuter car to drive round at 30mph for short distances

Early models of the Nissan leaf weren't too much more than that (though there have been some advances since the invention of electricity). However, golf carts are the modern version of the small electric car - and is street legal in service jurisdictions!

(Okay, technically what's street legal isn't literally a golf cart, and is called a low speed vehicle (LSV) and will only do 25mph, and aren't always electric, but close enough!)

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#126

Post by 9HZZRfNlpR » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 6:06 AM UTC

Robotbeat wrote: post #103

todd8 wrote: post #98

Perhaps we could have had electric vehicles sooner, but we would have needed clean sources of electricity, not coal powered generation, to make a difference.

Many of the largest early sources of electricity were, in fact, hydro power. We could've just kept building more of those until the mid 20th century when we would've pretty much maxed out the rivers (in the US). And don't forget wind power. Could do that, too. The intermittentness handled in areas by hydro as well. Then nuclear in the mid 20th century.

If we talk about world, not just USA, then many places just don't have the luxury of hydro, or even wind. And often gas needs to be imported making it expensive. Coal was just cheap and effective to begin with.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#127

Post by dmitriid » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 6:10 AM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #93

maxxxxx wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think steam engines prototyped a lot of the needed technology like lubrication, manufacturing of precision shafts and heat resistance which then could be applied to the gas engine.

There's an interesting example of technological synergy at the dawn of the steam engine industry. To build an effective steam engine, you need a precisely ground piston and a precisely bored cylinder, otherwise you can't get useful working pressures. Grinding the piston is laborious but straightforward - you just need two centers and a cutting tool to achieve a rotationally symmetrical part. Boring the cylinder is mu…

This also shows the curious paradox (if it’s a paradox) that we can’t easily re-create many of the industries from scratch. We’ve had many intermediate steps that we discarded along the way.

In other words, modern industry is the product of modern industry.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#128

Post by DuskStar » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 6:27 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #43

potta_coffee wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We still don't know the full extent of the environmental impact of the Fukushima disaster. Can we afford more incidents of that nature? I'm not certain.

Is the "full effect" more than a million deaths a year? Because that's how many people coal kills. And Im not talking about global warming. I am instead only talking about the pollution deaths. If Chernobyl happened like 3 times every single year, that would still be safer than coal, TBH.

> If Chernobyl happened like 3 times every single year, that would still be safer than coal, TBH.

More like 300, assuming 4000 (as per the IAEA) deaths from Chernobyl.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#129

Post by godelski » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 6:34 AM UTC

chadcmulligan wrote: post #121

Some of the reasons why petrol won: There was no electric grid to speak of - even now there is concern the grid can't support all EV's, once you were outside the cities (and there weren't many back then) the grid was spotty. The miracle of being able to pour some cheap liquid in an engine and drive for miles is a considerable achievement. Lead acid batteries weren't very good and were expensive (and still are) and do…

Another reason: Even today the energy density of batteries is SUBSTANTIALLY smaller than that of fossil fuels. [0] We frequently see this graph [1] showing how far batteries have come (they have! and we need to keep going) but not understanding this is part of the issue too. [0] is why we need to keep researching, but [0] is why electric was never going to win in the beginning. It is taking very advanced materials to get to pretty decent energy densities and also advanced materials to use electricity more efficiently. Advanced materials that would likely^ not have been invented that far back even if there was a demand.

[0] https://static.financialsense.com/historical/users/u242/imag...

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Gp_Pandey/publication/2...

^ For you hopefuls, I say likely not impossible. The machining to create these state of the art batteries requires a lot of other technologies.

Re: We Could Have Had Electric Cars from the Beginning

#130

Post by Gibbon1 » Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 6:37 AM UTC

munk-a wrote: post #74

Gibbon1 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people tend to forget that before 1900-1940 if you were outside of the city; no electricity.

Not everyone has always had access to everything... internet in rural districts used to be rare as well. I don't think you can really make any sort of meaningful conclusion from this - rural areas tend to lag in this sort of innovation.

Two of my great grandfathers bought cars around 1915. One owned a plantation outside of Memphis. And the other a ranch in California. They didn't have electricity.

Not developed by my comment is in 1920 you didn't 'need' a car in cities. Since you had street cars. In rural/small town America cars were really useful but electric cars were a non starter.