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People are pooping more than ever on the streets of San Francisco

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Re: People are pooping more than ever on the streets of San Francisco

#121
This is a solvable problem, but I don't think anyone is approaching it from a sufficiently removed perspective.

Up front, yes, we need to be compassionate to these people (and they are people) and remember that if you're posting on HN odds are you're fortunate enough to extend a helping hand once in a while.

But we cannot sacrifice the city's quality of life by enabling behaviors that endanger these people and others. That's what we're doing right now. Explicitly. There's no "how do we engineer our way out of this problem" by way of designing some new novel public bathroom. Reinventing the urinal isn't a solution to this - it isn't even a bandaid. What's worse, more public bathrooms seems extremely likely to encourage a spiral of dangerous behavior to an increasing degree. We'd just move it from the streets and concentrate it in public spaces that are no longer really public, but rather are just bio-hazardous dorms for the homeless and addicted. Elsewhere in this thread, someone noted that SF essentially already has a pseudo-UBI program for the homeless. This seems patently absurd to me. Forget about this being a literal cash transfer to drug dealers, giving an addict cash is actually worse than just giving them drugs - now they have to go out and score, endangering themselves and very likely others around them.

So what is to be done? First we have to be honest. The overwhelming majority of these people are no longer "down on their luck". They're addicts, with severe mental health issues and no amount of "nudges" will make them change their behavior. We should start with diverting all this money that goes to nebulous initiatives like "housing" and these cash give-aways into funding legitimate facilities staffed with case workers, doctors, job trainers, and police.

And then we should make vagrancy illegal.

I don't say this lightly, as I've had a family member die from opioid addiction. But so many of these people have lost their own agency. They no longer have the ability to care for themselves. If the state doesn't step in, they will be next on the gurney - and everyone here knows it. You know it when you walk past the guy shooting up on the sidewalk on the way home from work. You know it when you see the woman with that "look" holding a sign that says "7 months pregnant, terrified, anything will help". We can stand idle and watch this happen, like we have for so many years. Or we can swallow our pride and realize that this system we've set up out of "compassion" is fundamentally broken and is at its root enabling severe problems - and end it.

Re: People are pooping more than ever on the streets of San Francisco

#122

I have a modest proposal to end this problem. There are too many homeless in San Francisco. Additionally, California has too few wolves. I propose that we release wolves into the streets of San Francisco once per month. Only the strong will be able to evade the wolves and the weak and sick will be eaten. This will lower the homeless population will simultaneously helping the wolf population rebound to record numbers.

Even wolves have standards.

Re: People are pooping more than ever on the streets of San Francisco

#123

I have a modest proposal to end this problem. There are too many homeless in San Francisco. Additionally, California has too few wolves. I propose that we release wolves into the streets of San Francisco once per month. Only the strong will be able to evade the wolves and the weak and sick will be eaten. This will lower the homeless population will simultaneously helping the wolf population rebound to record numbers.

Problem is wolves also poop on the street. The poop-trade off is very inconclusive.

Coyotes preferentially poop on (human) trails.

Re: People are pooping more than ever on the streets of San Francisco

#124
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you like that idea, there's babies too; they can be a most delicious nourishing and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled

Wow, suddenly HN is grade 6 all over again.

I believe this a a reference to "A Modest Proposal" by Jonathan Swift, a classic piece of political satire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

Re: People are pooping more than ever on the streets of San Francisco

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you want to give the homeowners houses to the homeless people and your "disenfranchised" problem will be solved. Great theory, you should definitely pursue it.

Look closer at my comment and keep the sarcasm to yourself. I’m talking about ownership, not forced wealth redistribution. Ownership can take many forms, from owning a house, to owning a project at work, to building a garden, and so on. I don’t know how to more equitably distribute ownership for various aspects of society, but I have a feeling that it’s part of the puzzle.

Why would I look closer? I don't need more time to digest your silly idea.

Re: People are pooping more than ever on the streets of San Francisco

#126
post #50
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or provide safe injection sites so junkies have somewhere to go. Our society’s attitude is “if you don’t pay taxes, you don’t deserve help.” That’s so morally wrong I can’t even explain it without going red in the face, but that’s the situation we’re in.

San Francisco alone is spending $50k per homeless person in San Francisco, on top of state and federal benefits. Are you going red in the face because we aren't spending $100k? If $100k doesn't solve the problem should we spend $200k? How much?

I have been homeless in my life, and while my ordeal wasn’t as bad as some, it’s definitely not a good feeling to have no idea where your next meal is coming from.

It’s not about the amount of money, it’s about summoning the political will to implement programs that sound counter-intuitive but attack the root of the problem while spending far less money.

A few examples:

- Safe injection sites reduce crime, restrict the spread of blood-borne diseases, and are cheaper than most forms of outreach. When combined with access to detox and treatment programs, they’re more effective and almost certainly cheaper than police and paramedics responding to hundreds of overdoses a day.

- Homeless shelters as designed are dangerous and ineffective at helping people transition from living on the street. A more effective solution is to provide longer-term, smaller scale housing. Lack of housing stability severely impairs an otherwise capable person’s ability to find a job. While the cost-per-person for such a program would be higher than shelters, I suspect it would actually save money by reducing the amount of time a person needs benefits.

- Mental health. Mental health. Mental health. We ignore the problem and marginalize mentally ill people from society; which leads to homelessness. There are not enough case workers to deal with the problem, and they are so underpaid that most aren’t far removed from homelessness themselves. We also have to recognize that some people will never be capable of independent living — giving them benefits is not “enabling” their bad habits, it’s taking care of a person who cannot take care of themselves.

- Too many outreach programs use a “carrot and stick” approach to providing benefits. For people dealing with profound mental health issues, they may not be capable of meeting whatever requirements are placed upon them, despite their best efforts. The efforts of ensuring compliance with “carrot and stick” programs add costs and reduce the impact of every dollar spent.

- A political recognition and acceptance that some people will try to game the system. Some will be successful. That doesn’t mean these programs are ineffective — provide the benefits, investigate the fraud and prosecute the offenders. We have laws against this kind of fraud already. We don’t need new, complex compliance mechanisms.

The net here is that homeless people’s lives are often in an out-of-control spiral of helplessness and marginalization that generates an existential level of stress. Unless we can break that spiral by providing a stable, safe environment, the homeless problem will only get worse. It takes the political will to actually help people rather than paper over the problem.

Re: People are pooping more than ever on the streets of San Francisco

#127
post #50
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or provide safe injection sites so junkies have somewhere to go. Our society’s attitude is “if you don’t pay taxes, you don’t deserve help.” That’s so morally wrong I can’t even explain it without going red in the face, but that’s the situation we’re in.

San Francisco alone is spending $50k per homeless person in San Francisco, on top of state and federal benefits. Are you going red in the face because we aren't spending $100k? If $100k doesn't solve the problem should we spend $200k? How much?

You’re looking at this as homeless spending when this is clearly public works and public health spending.

There is shit in the streets, now. If you’re fine with shit continuing to be in the streets, then sure, if the measure comes up to do something about it, go ahead and vote it down. Frankly it is largely in the parts of town I don’t frequent these days, I don’t even have much of a vested interest, but I do have enough pride in my city to at the very least, not want people and their shit to remain on the streets.

Re: People are pooping more than ever on the streets of San Francisco

#128
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, suddenly HN is grade 6 all over again.

I believe this a a reference to "A Modest Proposal" by Jonathan Swift, a classic piece of political satire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

6th grade was when most people first saw this, yes.

Re: People are pooping more than ever on the streets of San Francisco

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe this a a reference to "A Modest Proposal" by Jonathan Swift, a classic piece of political satire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

6th grade was when most people first saw this, yes.

I now feel both wrong and vindicated at the same time. It's a very specifically HN state to enjoy. Thanks!
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