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Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

nytimes.com

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Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#121

Post by basch »

untog wrote: post #59
crowbahr wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gut reaction: I feel like Android would not survive Google being forced to remove all their apps from the Google play store.

Android is perhaps the closest in comparison to Microsoft/Internet Explorer. Spin off Android into its own company, including the Play Store. There would be nothing stopping Google from keeping their apps in the Play Store, but they would sit on the same level as competing mapping and search apps, and users would choose which one to use instead of have it preinstalled.

You have the option as an Android provider to use android and provide your own services OR ship the device with Google Play services. Amazon for example does the former.

I actually think Android is a really bad example precisely because all the useful google apps ARE separate from the OS. Its just that what people think of as android is actually mostly Play Services now.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#122

Post by nickodell »

elliekelly wrote: post #99
ropeladder wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it seems ridiculous in hindsight. I think what enabled the mergers though was less someone with a brilliant idea that they could just recombine, and more the drastic change in the government's conception and enforcement of antcompetitiveness laws. That is, they wouldn't have tried to merge back together if the they didn't think the government might let them. The government can and does does block mergers, still,…

This is the exact issue. The DOJ's Antitrust Criminal Enforcement Division breaks up the companies by making an argument that's then directly contradicted by the DOJ's Merger Enforcement Division's (very outdated) policy on approving mergers. From the Merger Enforcement Guidelines[1] (last updated in 1997): > By definition, non-horizontal mergers involve firms that do not operate in the same market. It necessarily fo…

Amazon and Google do operate in several of the same markets. Amazon sells Kindle/Fire devices. Google sells Android phones. Amazon does product search. Google has a product search engine.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#123

Post by CPLX »

geofft wrote: post #58

This is an excellent goal, and Paul Graham has articulated the reasoning pretty clearly: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/886953410356011008 > Here's how to explain to people the distinction between fighting poverty and fighting economic inequality. If you're fighting poverty, you might say "Let's have universal health care." If you're fighting economic inequality, you have to say "Let's have universal health care. A…

> If you're fighting economic inequality, you have to say "Let's have universal health care. And Larry, please don't start Google." Otherwise Larry's going to mess up your numbers big time.

That's fucking idiocy. Or more accurately, propaganda from a billionaire with extreme vested interest in this topic.

It's pretty straightforward to say "Go ahead and start Google, and if it succeeds we're going to have some basic rules about worker's rights and compensation you'll have to follow, and we're going to tax a much larger percentage of your personal gains, but you'll still be very, very rich". At which point you're also fighting economic inequality.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#124

Post by basch »

velcrovan wrote: post #116
sleepysysadmin wrote: post #16

To what end? "illegally undermine competition?" She is inferring that Google/Amazon/Facebook are committing anti-trust crimes? What proof does she have? >Companies would be barred from transferring or sharing users’ data with third parties. That can be done without breaking them up. I don't think she realizes that splitting up amazon and amazon basics will do little to nothing. There are other things that can be done…

There is a case for splitting Amazon and AWS. The point of anti-trust laws is to break up monopolies because they represent a massive and dangerous concentration of market and political power in the hands of the few. You don't need evidence of any specific crime to do it. You can say you'd prefer it not be that way. But it's a provision of existing law, with precedents. To really argue for your preference you'd need…

Facebook should be treated the same way and spit up vertically then, not horizontally. Datacenter and infrastructure and all their low level services should be split from client apps, NOT messenger split from whatsapp.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#125

Post by basch »

will_brown wrote: post #112
sleepysysadmin wrote: post #16

To what end? "illegally undermine competition?" She is inferring that Google/Amazon/Facebook are committing anti-trust crimes? What proof does she have? >Companies would be barred from transferring or sharing users’ data with third parties. That can be done without breaking them up. I don't think she realizes that splitting up amazon and amazon basics will do little to nothing. There are other things that can be done…

>I don't think she realizes that splitting up amazon and amazon basics will do little to nothing. I think amazon : amazon basics is a great example of antitrust/unfair monopoly the same as google search : almost all consumer facing google products. Both amazon and google search are the dominate online market leaders in their respective categories. In amazons case they unfairly use their market position to begin offer…

I agree. But if we are going to split up the store platform and the store brands, now youre going to have to split up Target, Walmart etc. Anyone besides Ikea who sells their own store brand and runs as a platform for others to sell their products.

Any grocery store can do the same thing amazon is doing, use data about sales to push clones and store brands of popular products. What percent of products at Target are store brand now? Target is like an Ikea with 3rd party products sprinkled in it, which is what Amazon wants to become.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#126

Post by sooheon »

geofft wrote: post #58

This is an excellent goal, and Paul Graham has articulated the reasoning pretty clearly: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/886953410356011008 > Here's how to explain to people the distinction between fighting poverty and fighting economic inequality. If you're fighting poverty, you might say "Let's have universal health care." If you're fighting economic inequality, you have to say "Let's have universal health care. A…

That reads like Graham is poking fun at Google/Larry opposers, am I missing something? He's saying fighting poverty by bringing up the bottom is noble, but fighting inequality by capping the top end is foolish.

BTW I agree with him in the sense that indices like Gini coefficients etc. are not comprehensive enough, and optimizing for simple numbers leads to distorted outcomes. I also agree with you in the sense that top heavy players in the economy are harmful to the extent that they seek rent and prevent competition.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#128

Post by bjourne »

mabbo wrote: post #97

There's precedent to this in the USA. The US Government once passed regulations that caused one of the largest companies in America to break up into three smaller companies. Today those, three companies are entirely independent, employ over 400,000 people combined, and have a combined net work of over $400B. Those companies are Boeing Aircraft (153k employees, $244B market value), United Technologies (202k employees,…

But the companies will all still have the same owners. So one wonders if splitting them actually helps with anything?

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#129

Post by farisjarrah »

wongarsu wrote: post #107
robbick wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And tbh - most people would still probably download google chrome, google maps, google docs etc - it would just level the playing field

I would download all those, but there's also a lot of Google stuff pre-installed on my phone that I wouldn't have downloaded: the Google search bar, Google assistant, Google music, Hangouts, Google+, just to name a few.

Man, that persistent white toolbar at the bottom of the screen is really annoying when I want to check my phone in the middle of the night.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#130

Post by geofft »

rayiner wrote: post #119
geofft wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Er, what is the place in the world for them? Defense contractors should be ground to bits.

This view misunderstands the nature of modern science and R&D. Interesting R&D is shockingly expensive, and you need mega-corps to do it. The cost of a new fab is $10 billion now, and it's been increasing exponentially. The 747 cost $7.5 billion in inflation-adjusted dollars to develop. The 787 cost almost $30 billion. The future of science and technology is not Edison inventing the lightbulb in his private lab. It's…

I agree you need significant amounts of resources / capital to do it. I disagree you need megacorps to do it. It's inefficient for the means of production to be held by a private company looking out for its own interests and wealth and not the good of society: even if you want the military to be more capable, the military-industrial complex is a bad way to do it. And the argument that startups need to spend money on their own fabs is an argument these shouldn't be in private, competitive hands.
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