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Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

blog.interviewing.io

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Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#121

Post by OpieCunningham »

fiblye wrote: post #117
OpieCunningham wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This may have been the case decade(s) ago, but I think the climate is very different now. I don't. I've met many incompetent white males in over their heads.

I’ve met many incompetent people who don’t belong at their job. Race and gender isn’t related.

Good. Then we're in agreement that hiring for diversity is of no detriment. Incompetent white people are hired because of subconscious bias and incompetent people of color are hired because of diversity goals. We've achieved equality.

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#122

Post by iguy »

onewhonknocks wrote: post #31

This reminds me of an interesting Harvard study I read a few years ago titled 'Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal'. It can be found here: https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/sendhil/files/are_emily_an...

IIRC this was one of the studies whose name list was criticised for having a lot of class differences as well as claimed race differences: when the authors sat down to invent white- and black-sounding names, they picked high-class and low-class names, thus injecting their own stereotypes into their data.

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#123

Post by OpieCunningham »

mamurphy wrote: post #120
OpieCunningham wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This may have been the case decade(s) ago, but I think the climate is very different now. I don't. I've met many incompetent white males in over their heads.

There are tons of people over their heads, everywhere, of all races and sexes. But as the other person who replied to you noted, people now are openly stating that they want to avoid hiring white males. >Sadly I've had to bring up my genetic background recently as a pure survival mechanism because people keep telling me to my face that they don't want to hire white men so I need to let them know I'm not white so I do…

You were stating that "things have changed" in response to my statement that white males are often hired because of subconscious bias. That there are recent diversity hiring programs does not mean that white males are no longer hired because of subconscious bias.

Clearly, diversity hiring programs are new things that did not exist decades ago.

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#124

Post by CyberDildonics »

manfredo wrote: post #20

I suspect many companies wouldn't use this as it would make affirmative hiring policies more difficult. For example, recruiters at my company curate lists of names that are majority female, black, or Hispanic (pulled from the census bureau) in order to try and determine which candidates are diverse. Recruiters at my company aren't explicitly told to hit certain quotas, but they are given larger bonuses for diverse hi…

> Recruiters at my company aren't explicitly told to hit certain quotas, but they are given larger bonuses for diverse hires and they do have targets for certain percentages of diverse candidate.

If 'diversity' means age, sex, race, or religion, this is straight up illegal discrimination.

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#125

Post by fiblye »

OpieCunningham wrote: post #121
fiblye wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve met many incompetent people who don’t belong at their job. Race and gender isn’t related.

Good. Then we're in agreement that hiring for diversity is of no detriment. Incompetent white people are hired because of subconscious bias and incompetent people of color are hired because of diversity goals. We've achieved equality.

I think anyone who hires purely for race or appearance or physical diversity is absolutely incompetent. Having a fully conscious bias that intentionally hiring people physically different from you just because they’re physically different is pure, undiluted incompetence at the highest level and absolutely against equality since it gives preference to specific groups.

In that sense, yes, we’re in full agreement and you intentionally warping my obvious meaning to guilt me into your line of thought won’t work.

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#126

Post by manfredo »

depressedpanda wrote: post #115
manfredo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a double edged sword. In tech, it's been found that blind hiring processes where candidates' name, education, and past employers are obscured (a third party broadly describes the education and work experience but doesn't give any explicit names) does result in more hires from less prestigious universities and companies. But it does make the hired population more male and more white & Asian. I think triplebyte di…

How is that in any way double edged? Or am I wrong in thinking that hiring policies should strive to be as meritocratic as possible, even if that means more white/Asian men?

Well, in the Bay Area yes. Many do think meritocratic systems are bad because they often produce results that don't reflect the broader population. Some go so far as to say that advocating a meritocratic system is an act of racism and sexism.

To me at least, I don't think it's fair to make the blanket statement that meritocracy is bad. It's all a question of values, namely whether someone values equality of the process itself or equaity of the process's outcome. Different people have different values so they'll inevitably have different opinions on meritocratic systems.

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#127

Post by tdhoot »

stirfrykitty wrote: post #74
manfredo wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Asians are getting hired at ~3x the rate of Whites in Bay area tech firms. So it can't just be benefitting Whites. In fact, at many Bay area companies Whites are a minority. Not that I'm trying to grind an axe here, but it is pretty much counterfactual to say that explicitly meritocratic hiring benefits Whites above all others. For what it's worth I think this question about hiring practices is welded to the th…

Every Asian I know in IT works ridiculous hours compared to their white counterparts. Ditto Indians. Americans in general (IT can be different) want to work their 8 and bail. I also fall into this category. I have a union mentality towards work. It's also why I demand an hourly rate over a salary. If I have to work, you are paying me. Texas employers seem happy to accommodate me. My wife, who is medical, also demande…

This sort of reasoning by a hiring manager would be a great example of bias against white people.

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#128

Post by VikingCoder »

iguy wrote: post #122
onewhonknocks wrote: post #31

This reminds me of an interesting Harvard study I read a few years ago titled 'Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal'. It can be found here: https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/sendhil/files/are_emily_an...

IIRC this was one of the studies whose name list was criticised for having a lot of class differences as well as claimed race differences: when the authors sat down to invent white- and black-sounding names, they picked high-class and low-class names, thus injecting their own stereotypes into their data.

I saw another study where they found phone numbers for mental health professionals, and they called and left a message, asking someone to call them back to set up a first appointment.

The had other people rate the voices as "sounds black" / "sounds white," and "sounds white-collar" / "sounds blue-collar."

That way, they measured the correlation between "sounds black" and "doesn't get call backs."

As you can imagine, "white" sounding people got more call backs. And "white-collar" sounding people got more call backs. I don't know if they reported which was more beneficial, sounding white, or white-collar.

My point being, if you have a large enough collection of names, and you measure how the candidate appears to them, you can then correlate the appearance with the outcome, showing the bias against that appearance.

You don't need to have the researchers generate their own candidates.

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#129

Post by OpieCunningham »

OpieCunningham wrote: post #121
fiblye wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve met many incompetent people who don’t belong at their job. Race and gender isn’t related.

Good. Then we're in agreement that hiring for diversity is of no detriment. Incompetent white people are hired because of subconscious bias and incompetent people of color are hired because of diversity goals. We've achieved equality.

> absolutely against equality since it gives preference to specific groups

Clearly we disagree significantly. But I mean, really: When reality is not equal, preference must be given to achieve equality. This is just obvious.

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#130

Post by manfredo »

OpieCunningham wrote: post #121
fiblye wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve met many incompetent people who don’t belong at their job. Race and gender isn’t related.

Good. Then we're in agreement that hiring for diversity is of no detriment. Incompetent white people are hired because of subconscious bias and incompetent people of color are hired because of diversity goals. We've achieved equality.

> We've achieved equality

Many would debate this. At my company our new grads hired last year were 39% women while ~20% of graduates in computing related fields were women. The percentage of applicants were even lower than that.

Some disagree that continuing to apply affirmative action in spite of a proportional overrepresentation of nearly 2x is equality. Granted others view things in terms of relationship with the total population, so it's not like there's one right answer here.

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