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The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

theatlantic.com

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Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#121

Post by mixmastamyk »

ams6110 wrote: post #105
USNetizen wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree with the commentators on your post. I went the college route, but technically had a "trade school" experience first via the military - it gave me the befit of trying out a career field before I committed to a degree. I have family members who just went to trade school and comfortably clear 6 figures a year - they never even had a desire for college. We need to stop stigmatizing trade schools and start…

"An expansive view of human knowledge" is not what the modern undergraduate degree provides anyway. For a huge number of undergrads, college is high school part 2, just something they need to get through to get a good job. They are not there to expand their minds, and to the extent it happens, it's a side-effect and pretty minimal for most. I say that as someone with an undergrad degree from a major state university,…

> I did not discover anything new or mind-expanding outside of that.

Which electives did you choose? Personally took several that have nothing to do with my current job that I still find interesting.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#122

Post by curtis »

zrobotics wrote: post #91
curtis wrote: post #69

I'm inclined to think that there ought to be a four year college degree that teaches a number of different trade skills as part of its core curriculum. A student in such a program might take history and mathematics courses similar to other college students, but would also learn concrete skills like welding, electrical wiring, HVAC, etc. The goal would be to have a graduate that might be able to find work in a variety…

The trouble is, that graduate wouldn't be much more worthwhile than a fresh high-school grad. Taking a few welding courses won't make you employable for most jobs, it takes quite a lot of time to build up that skill. And while a bit of knowledge of other trades is always a good thing, it takes more than a few classes to prepare someone to work in HVAC. While the liberal-arts model of small amounts of exposure to diff…

Further training might be required, but if there's a shortage of trained HVAC people, an employer might prefer to hire someone that already knows something about the field, and who happens to know a bunch of other stuff as well (because that indicates they're good at learning new stuff).

For the prospective employee, there's some advantage in not being deeply locked-in to one field in particular. Depending on economic circumstances, you might need to switch trades half-way through your career. The idea is that having some basic experience in a number of different skillsets will make a switch easier if you need to do that.

That's the theory anyway. I don't know whether it's really practical though.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#123

Post by meltek »

ams6110 wrote: post #92
Datenstrom wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar situation and yes I have done that and far beyond. I even work in a field where it is just assumed I have a degree and people are always extremely shocked when I mention that I do not. I am under the impression it is not possible to CLEP computer science classes or in any way get recognition for this. Is that correct? Edit: specify CLEP for computer science

Good question. Are there any accredited graduate programs or professional programs that will accept students without undergrad degrees but with good GRE scores?

No undergrad at all? That would be fairly rare.

Non CS undergrad? Lots of universities have programs or tracks for CS masters from a non-CS background.

I have seen a few universities set up accelerated professional CS BA/BS in the past five years or so.

A more common path that I have seen from self thought developers that "needed the degree" has been doing a reputable local or online BA/BS part-time.

edit: grammar & formating

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#124

Post by mixmastamyk »

USNetizen wrote: post #51
ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

I tend to agree with the commentators on your post. I went the college route, but technically had a "trade school" experience first via the military - it gave me the befit of trying out a career field before I committed to a degree. I have family members who just went to trade school and comfortably clear 6 figures a year - they never even had a desire for college. We need to stop stigmatizing trade schools and start…

> college degrees are virtually meaningless

…but essential in their gate-keeping aspect for coveted positions.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#125

Post by ceej01 »

intopieces wrote: post #101

An entire article about the future of education and not a single paragraph about automation. How are trade schools preparing students to reinvent themselves every 10 years or less? How is vocational education setting the expectation that those students will have not one career for the rest of their lives, but many? This is not to say that liberal arts colleges are much better; but, at least with 4 year degrees, the e…

Will trade jobs be automated? Plumbers, HVAC, Welders are jobs that seem to be the least likely to be automated..

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#126

Post by pretendscholar »

jseliger wrote: post #7

The crazy thing is that most colleges have evolved non-academic party tracks, or simple tuition-extraction tracks: https://jakeseliger.com/2014/04/27/paying-for-the-party-eliz... . Talking about "college," as if it's just one big unified thing, doesn't make sense today (if it ever did). I spent ten years teaching college, and I wish this point were better emphasized in the media narratives.

Do you think the college model makes sense for science/engineering?

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#127

Post by chaostheory »

I agree with the article's message. I have a lingering question though. The only thing that puzzled me is why Toren Reesman, the person being examined in the article, didn't opt to be an industrial designer. It's a very hands on major where you create physical things. Why didn't he like it? Was he even exposed to it?

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#128

Post by danbolt »

jseliger wrote: post #38
ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). That's true, but have you taught college at a non-elite school lately? Have you talked to most college graduates? The Case Against Education covers these topics effectively. https://quillette.com/2018/06/03/bryan-caplans-c…

The article linked mentions that the benefit of education increases nonlinearly with years completed, and then suggests that it’s a signalling mechanism for attainment.

I don’t entirely know if I agree with that, as I do think an undergraduate degree’s benefits are meant to be more impactful as you learn and specialize. Political Science students might learn general theories before engaging a specific focus, or electrical engineering students might spend their first year or two getting the foundations in place. I feel like the example is saying that if you taught someone programming with variables and not functions, but then claimed that employers use an understanding of functions as a social signal for hiring.

That said, I do agree with the sentiment that we kind of over prescribe higher education to the general public. I’ve lost count of how many CS majors I’ve met that seem to have wished they did a trade school for programming instead of a four-year degree.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#129

Post by sodafountan »

finder83 wrote: post #56
ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

Except that's what high school should be. And let's face it, general studies courses that make up that "expansive view" of college really are repeats of high school with slightly more work, at least if you take honors classes in high school. And if that expansive knowledge is being surrounded by peers who are in pursuit of higher learning...that's not the typical college experience these days. High school is becoming…

The person you replied to also doesn't mention that just because you attend a trade school doesn't mean you can't acquire an expansive world view on your own, again more stigma that is indicated in the article.

Why wouldn't a linesman, electrician or carpenter be able to self educate? We live in the day and age of the internet, the largest store of human knowledge ever to exist is a few clicks and an inquisitive mind away.

I understand that college exposes you to things you might not have otherwise been exposed to, and provides teachers and mentors to facilitate the learning of that material. But if you attend college with the end goal of getting a degree to cash in for a paycheck like so many college age people do and you're not motivated to actually learn the material you're exposed to in any meaningful way and that information isn't retained then what's the point? Certainly that's not all college kids but I'd argue the vast majority are only there because they believe it to be a ticket to the middle class.

I'm a self-taught software engineer who never finished college, so the trade school stigma hits home. I certainly strive to be as educated and productive as possible in my life and career - and so far that path hasn't held me back at all. I'm employed, highly paid and fairly happy, I just chose not to receive that education in the confines of the classroom

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