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Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

npr.org

121–130 of 369 posts

Re: Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Important distinction. Most western countries don't bankrupt you for getting old or sick. Oh boy, did i say something which wasn't Pro-'Merica?

Most western countries are subsidized by US pharmaceutical innovation.

I am aware that Israel performs many studies that are banned in the US for various political and moral reasons. There's innovation outside the US. Sure.

I am also aware that almost every drug advertised on TV (and available as a treatment) is now narrowly targeted to specific conditions of specific diseases rather than broadly. Yet, even when we were seeing Tylenol and Ibuprofen developed, the arguments for the "expenses of innovation" were the same.

I suspect it's hand waving away corruption. The number of large pharma companies going out of business is very small, meaning they aren't assuming risk that would justify the "expense of innovation" reasoning, in the US.

Re: Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

#122

It's such an absurd expense that I wonder if I get diagnosed with cancer, I would just deny treatment, accept death, and hand my assets to loved ones. Not sure if anyone else thinks the same way.

I think that route is unpopular because we no longer have a sane relationship with death as a society. Religion, at least in theory, should help, but rates are declining there too. We'll pay any price to avoid the inevitable. We'll spend hundreds of thousands to get one more year of poor quality time with family, yet neglect to spend that time in better quality when health is taken for granted.

If you had no family, you could save many more lives for cheaper and easier to treat sicknesses, plus donating your healthy organs.

Re: Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The publication is NPR so that it is US news goes somewhat without saying. However, this is something that Americans need to understand is exceptional for a nation of its resources.

So what is the solution? More than 42% went all in with the constraint being their personal assets. If that constraint was lifted, then what would the next constraint be? Obviously the additional assets would come from other people, and probably not voluntarily (which is a different issue), but what would be the limiting factor then? Also, I assume the new pool of assets would be available not just to the 42% that we…

You're assuming that the costs are fixed, and that the only issue is when we decide to stop spending.

An alternative is that the costs AREN'T fixed - that a significant portion of the money involved goes to costs that aren't actually costs of the heath care itself. This could be insurance overhead (all the people to manage the paperwork to get approval for the work ultimately adds to bill I have to pay), inflated costs (for those without insurance, or dealing with things insurance won't/has stopped covering, the habit of hospitals to raise their base rates so they can then offer a discount to insurance companies hits them full on), market weaknesses (A lot has been written about how non-transparent the market is, meaning it's basically impossible to shop for good care at a good price), etc.

If a new splanch transplant (made up numbers here) ultimately costs $10,000 in the UK and $100,000 in the US (regardless of whether that is paid directly by me or indirectly via taxes), then the issue is different than what you've highlighted.

Re: Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

#124

I’m confused. If you have medical insurance, shouldn’t you only pay up to your deductible? Is this saying people’s life assets don’t cover the deductible? Or, people are uninsured?

There's a huge spectrum of what's covered under US insurance plans. Mine, for example, is a "good" plan for the size of company we are, but if I was rushed to a hospital that wasn't in-network in an emergency, or a hospital visit was later deemed "unnecessary" by the insurance company, I could be subject to huge bills.

Re: Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

#125
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to add that in most of western countries, the cancer treatment offered in USA won't even be considered due to the way they manage expenses. If they consider treatment not worth the years of life added, they just skip them. https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/06/13/why-the-us-has...

The assertion that "most" treatments aren't available outside of the US is nonsense. Here in the UK some expensive and experimental treatments aren't provided, but things with proven efficacy usually are available to all, and if you have money you can pay privately for most other treatments (just like the US).

It's not the UK, but...

"It's crazy that I live in Canada, but now I'm looking at having to sell my house for coverage of my medication."

"Then I found out that this other country — which I thought had a healthcare system that was so superior to the U.S. — doesn't test for the tumour marker that saved my life, and doesn't cover this drug that is responsible for pushing my cancer into remission after traditional chemotherapy failed to do that."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/a-tale-of-2-...

Re: Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

#126
This is unfortunate, but what do you want to do, have the government pay for it? Maybe there are a lot of people with cancer who will get better and live for X number of years. But many people are going to die in a year or two and we would just end up spending millions of dollars on them, essentially wasting the government's money. How much money would you spend to increase someone's life by a minute, an hour, a day, a month, etc?

And if there was a maximum amount the government was willing to pay, then people would just be talking about how the government is deciding the price of life. Maybe you could devise a fair system in which every individual has a certain dollar amount allocated to all the healthcare in their life, and then if they go over that, they would have to pay it themselves. But I think people would be upset about that as well.

At the end of the day, every system we create (bridges, power plants, cars, etc) is implicitly or explicitly deciding the price of a human life. People are uncomfortable with that idea, so they try to think of things in different terms.

Our healthcare system is broken, but not for the reason people think. It's broken because it's this public-private Frankenstein monster of rent-seeking, self-dealing, and corruption. It was terrible to begin with, but Obamacare made it so much worse. The system has become so complex that the government can't properly model or anticipate how legislation would affect the long-term stability of the system. Over the years, the government has legislated bug fixes over bug fixes, patches over patches.

What needs to be done is replace this horrible and inefficient beast with a completely free market system. Just get rid of all of the laws and start anew. I guarantee you that the free market would be able to offer reasonably priced insurance plans that would service a variety of needs.

The solution isn't free healthcare for everyone. The US government does not have the money to even begin to do something like that.

Re: Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

#127
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, I've never heard this before. What makes you say that?

"Researchers from Britain's University of Liverpool also found U.S. prices were consistently higher than in other European markets. Elsewhere, U.S. prices were six times higher than in Brazil and 16 times higher than the average in the lowest-price country, which was usually India." "Manufacturers say decent returns are needed to reward high-risk research and prices reflect the economic value provided by medicines. T…

What they say doesn't matter. What matter is what they do.

http://rooseveltinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/RI_...

---start quote---

Contrary to the industry’s claims, unaffordable prescription drugs are not the price we must pay for the industry to find cures and innovate affordable medicines; rather, it is the price tag we pay for an industry that values profits over patients and public health.

...

Despite ample revenue and profits, however, R&D spending has been relatively stagnant. While industry revenue increased by 45 percent, or $241 billion from 2008 to 2014, industry spending on R&D increased just 8.5 percent in that same period, from $82 billion to $89 billion (GAO 2017). By some measures, R&D expenditures are actually falling, as more firms are outsourcing R&D to third parties. In that seven-year period, purchased R&D increased from $20.5 billion to $31.2 billion while in-house R&D fell from $61.7 to $58.2 billion (GAO 2017). Finally, the industry can only claim partial credit for recent medical breakthroughs. The federal funding provided by taxpayers contributes around 25 to 30 percent of all R&D spending per year, and a Bentley College study found that all 210 drugs approved between 2010 and 2016 were rooted, in whole or in part, on National Institute of Health (NIH)-funded research (Cleary et al. 2017).

--- end quote ---

Re: Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't figure out whether your provider is in or out. Just yesterday I got a bill from someone I've never heard of who turns out to be a "Medication Safety Specialist" who allegedly rendered services to me worth $392. You'd think such a person would just be a functionary of the hospital who in any case bill me $27k every day, but actually they are some kind of mercenary who bill patients directly.

Yes, it's crazy how difficult these little things are. During birth, should one stand outside their wife's delivery room and ask each provider to wait outside while you look up if they are in network or not on your insurance company's app? At least we have apps to do that nowadays.

Yes, you should. When my wife gave birth the first time there was an endless parade of idiots who uselessly entered the room for a moment and then left and later sent a huge bill. We also got a bill from the anesthesiologist who was not present because my wife didn't want it and for the supposed attending obstetrician who, although they were paged, never showed up. We had to go through disputes of all those things and even though we prevailed on all of them, my attorney had to get paid.

Re: Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

#129
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, I've never heard this before. What makes you say that?

"Researchers from Britain's University of Liverpool also found U.S. prices were consistently higher than in other European markets. Elsewhere, U.S. prices were six times higher than in Brazil and 16 times higher than the average in the lowest-price country, which was usually India." "Manufacturers say decent returns are needed to reward high-risk research and prices reflect the economic value provided by medicines. T…

Hmm, I appreciate the link, but it only says "leaving some to accuse the USA of subsidizing..." I didn't see a very strong argument for this point.

>The United States, which leaves pricing to market competition, has higher drug prices than other countries where governments directly or indirectly control medicine costs.

Leads me to believe that it's so expensive because it can be.

Re: Cancer Complications: Confusing Bills, Maddening Errors And Endless Phone Calls

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in the Netherlands, if I would get cancer my contracting income would go to zero, I would have to get a government mortgage to eat my home and after depleting all my assets I would get welfare of about €1000 per month. Bye-bye retirement. The upside is that my healthcare expense would drop from about €5000 per year to €500 pear year.

If you are contracting, you should really consider getting incapacitation insurance (arbeidsongeschiktheidsverzekering). It’s normally paid by your employer and not cheap (but deductible), but I would consider it irresponsible not to do it.

A arbeidsongeschiktheidsverzekering will cost around €4000 per year and they usually don't pay when you are sick. If you get cancer but can still sort mail, assemble key-chains or fill out an online inquiry chances are that they will not pay you. They will go through all your medical records to find any excuse not to pay you. You will have to sue them to get a payout. And you have to pay income tax on that.
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