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Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

kirkcenter.org

121–130 of 214 posts

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#121
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not religious myself, but I think you’re letting some weird biases get in the way here. The point is that the world and the work of human beings is flawed, fallible, and imperfect. Whether or not heaven exists in heaven, it certainly doesn’t exist on earth and essentially never can.

That’s a very religious view. At most you can say humans are not what you wish them to be. Where a crystal may have ‘defects’ that’s meaningless for a pile of sand. Further, defects can be more useful than a perfect crystalline structure. So, to say perfection is unobtainable requires a strict definition of perfection and absolute proof it’s impossible. Both, are very high hurdles.

And Utopianism is the notion that perfection is attainable and perhaps even inevitable if you put enough enemies of the people against the wall.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#122
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a very religious view. At most you can say humans are not what you wish them to be. Where a crystal may have ‘defects’ that’s meaningless for a pile of sand. Further, defects can be more useful than a perfect crystalline structure. So, to say perfection is unobtainable requires a strict definition of perfection and absolute proof it’s impossible. Both, are very high hurdles.

And Utopianism is the notion that perfection is attainable and perhaps even inevitable if you put enough enemies of the people against the wall.

The opposite of the authors viewpoint isn’t Utopianism (which is as extreme in the opposite direction) but pragmatism and realism.

The fact that, flawed as we might seem, we are living in a reality that may not be possible to be more perfect.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: Two key identifying marks of dystopia are social regimentation and an inevitable totalitarianism. "Conform or be cast out." --Rush, Subdivisions, Signals, 1982 "Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences." From the article: Next, dystopia is marked by dehumanization How one tweet can ruin your life | Jon Ronson -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAIP6fI0NAI From the article: The abuse…

You are describing the concept of "social norms" and "taboos" and "shunning" in a particularly convoluted and confused way. You are talking about people being shunned and gossiped about like it is on par with being kidnapped by armed government agents and confined in a cell. Like going to jail or being killed and getting cancelled on twitter are close enough to the same thing that the same philosophical framework app…

You are talking about people being shunned and gossiped about like it is on par with being kidnapped by armed government agents and confined in a cell.

So one is bad stuff on the level of violent terrorists and intelligence agencies, and another is bad stuff on the level of mean girls in high school? No disagreement there. Both of those stink. Then, there's bad on the level of groups of people going around in masks, using anonymity to get away with beating people up (1), committing vandalism, and terrorism on a level where universities have to hire $600,000 in security. That's also happening. (Shouldn't this be the sad, tragic legacy of the past?)

Namecalling, exclusion, silencing -- none of these is intellectually worthy. None of these gets us closer to the truth. All they do is fuel and add legitimacy to the unreasonable extremists and prevent the reasonable discussions from being had.

Like going to jail or being killed and getting cancelled on twitter are close enough to the same thing that the same philosophical framework applies.

The common mechanism is the coercion in contrast to convincing. The key concept is that authoritarianism.

I'd suggest you back up and re-evaluate how you got here.

I'm not backing up. It's high time that lots of people stopped backing up and started calling out all the authoritarianism which is supposedly happening in the name of human freedom. It's coercion going against human freedom. If you are really on the side of justice, then when given the opportunity to hear people out and talk, you hear people out and talk. The side of justice, in the end, finally convinces through appeal to universal principle, not through force alone. In the long arc of history, it's clear who uses force alone. (Even in WWII, the victory of military arms would have meant just another war, if it weren't for the demonstration of principles and generosity by the US as victors. The subsequent cold war was won by the truth of our having a better system, not authoritarianism.)

(1 -- Even beating innocent people up, because they are too taken by anger to tell the difference.)

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are describing the concept of "social norms" and "taboos" and "shunning" in a particularly convoluted and confused way. You are talking about people being shunned and gossiped about like it is on par with being kidnapped by armed government agents and confined in a cell. Like going to jail or being killed and getting cancelled on twitter are close enough to the same thing that the same philosophical framework app…

You are talking about people being shunned and gossiped about like it is on par with being kidnapped by armed government agents and confined in a cell. So one is bad stuff on the level of violent terrorists and intelligence agencies, and another is bad stuff on the level of mean girls in high school? No disagreement there. Both of those stink. Then, there's bad on the level of groups of people going around in masks,…

Authoritarianism by definition requires a strong central power. Whatever you're talking about isn't authoritarianism.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>this world is fallen Makes the entire article essentially meaningless. How can I trust somebody with such a bizarre and unconnected worldview?

I’m not religious myself, but I think you’re letting some weird biases get in the way here. The point is that the world and the work of human beings is flawed, fallible, and imperfect. Whether or not heaven exists in heaven, it certainly doesn’t exist on earth and essentially never can.

The point is that the world and the work of human beings is flawed, fallible, and imperfect. Whether or not heaven exists in heaven, it certainly doesn’t exist on earth and essentially never can.

Into any system of sufficient complexity, a little suckage must come!

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: Two key identifying marks of dystopia are social regimentation and an inevitable totalitarianism. "Conform or be cast out." --Rush, Subdivisions, Signals, 1982 "Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences." From the article: Next, dystopia is marked by dehumanization How one tweet can ruin your life | Jon Ronson -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAIP6fI0NAI From the article: The abuse…

There's a story in the news today about a Coast Guard lieutenant with extreme political views who was planning to go on an Anders Breivik style murder spree. Your model doesn't seem to include people who have zero interest in dialogue or persuasion and are willing to simply eliminate people they find disagreeable. Regrettably, it's not hard to find people who subscribe to eliminationist ideologies, and having found t…

It is pretty simple, actually.

All you have to do is judge people on their actions, and let them say (but not act on) whatever they want.

So as long as someone is merely saying words on the internet, or whatever, then that's fine. And if instead, this person is stockpiling illegal weapons, well that's what the police are for.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#127
post #116

An article brought to you by an institute that believes in: "There are certain permanent things in society: the health of the family, inherited political institutions that insure a measure of order and justice and freedom, a life of diversity and independence, a life marked by widespread possession of private property. These permanent things guarantee against arbitrary interference by the state. These are all aspects…

What's wrong with any of that?

I just think its too on the nose. A classical liberal think tank writes scare piece about the downsides to Utopian progressivism. Yawn. Perhaps im getting old.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#128
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are talking about people being shunned and gossiped about like it is on par with being kidnapped by armed government agents and confined in a cell. So one is bad stuff on the level of violent terrorists and intelligence agencies, and another is bad stuff on the level of mean girls in high school? No disagreement there. Both of those stink. Then, there's bad on the level of groups of people going around in masks,…

Authoritarianism by definition requires a strong central power. Whatever you're talking about isn't authoritarianism.

Authoritarianism by definition requires a strong central power.

This is one of the dishonest absolute tropes which need to be squashed, because it obscures the truth. It's an obfuscation that's as good as a lie. (1) Here's the universal, timeless truth: All power is temporary and contextual. All of history teaches us this. A masked mob dominating the street for a couple of hours clearly has contextual power. The mob that took over Evergreen State College and made the president ask to go to the bathroom had temporary, contextual power.

Authoritarianism just requires power, and all power is temporary and contextual. Silencing speakers just requires this temporary, contextual power. Ruining a life just requires temporary, contextual power. Instilling fear so that people remain silent just requires temporary, contextual power. All of that is authoritarianism. All of that is coercion instead of convincing, and none of that requires the power of a government.

That said, there is plenty of centralized power now being used by corporations and by colluding groups spanning multiple powerful corporations. There is plenty of the corporate power of the purse acting to actively silence people operating in 2019 and recent years.

Whatever you're talking about isn't authoritarianism

Merely wielding power to make people do what you want is authoritarianism. That is what comes of pseudo-activism that never gets beyond grievance and outrage. That is what comes of pseudo-activism that stays in that potentially toxic zone and never gets to the level of universal and unifying principles. That's the dishonest ideology of people who want to wield power to coerce others, yet deny it at the same time. It's based on the obvious lie of static, timeless power, easily refuted by history.

(1 - "Power + Prejudice" being used to justify the distortion of a racial arrow onto what should be universal justice that applies to all human beings -- is part of the lie. We've seen ideologies that assign different justice to different races, creeds, orientations. They all claim to be part of a movement of justice, and in the end, they all turn out to be evil. If power is temporary and contextual, there can be no idiosyncratic directional vectors to justice, especially none related to melanin.)

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#129
post #33

I don't strongly disagree on any particular point, per se, but the fact that the author's thoughts are rooted in a religious worldview felt like it was snuck in there at the end: "Moreover, this world is fallen, so it is by nature flawed...The utopian visions that animate real places...seek to remake humanity and society in someone’s image—and that is not the image of the Creator." For further context, the website it…

Nothing straight can be built from crooked timber. -Kant

No but with the 3 planes method you can progressively hone any 3 non flat planes of material to arbitrarily closer margins of perfection without need for an external reference.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#130
post #33

I don't strongly disagree on any particular point, per se, but the fact that the author's thoughts are rooted in a religious worldview felt like it was snuck in there at the end: "Moreover, this world is fallen, so it is by nature flawed...The utopian visions that animate real places...seek to remake humanity and society in someone’s image—and that is not the image of the Creator." For further context, the website it…

>this world is fallen Makes the entire article essentially meaningless. How can I trust somebody with such a bizarre and unconnected worldview?

I'm not sure how serious you were, but if you're actually curious, I recommend Alan Jacob's book "Original Sin: A Cultural History": https://www.amazon.com/Original-Sin-Cultural-Alan-Jacobs/dp/.... Not particularly academic but very accessible.

Or for a slightly different approach, GK Chesterton's Orthodoxy: http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/130/pg130.html, even if you disagree with his arguments, I suspect if you give a read you'll enjoy his delightful prose.

> But all conservatism is based upon the idea that if you leave things alone you leave them as they are. But you do not. If you leave a thing alone you leave it to a torrent of change. If you leave a white post alone it will soon be a black post. If you particularly want it to be white you must be always painting it again; that is, you must be always having a revolution. Briefly, if you want the old white post you must have a new white post. But this which is true even of inanimate things is in a quite special and terrible sense true of all human things. An almost unnatural vigilance is really required of the citizen because of the horrible rapidity with which human institutions grow old. It is the custom in passing romance and journalism to talk of men suffering under old tyrannies. But, as a fact, men have almost always suffered under new tyrannies; under tyrannies that had been public liberties hardly twenty years before. [...]

> This startling swiftness with which popular systems turn oppressive is the third fact for which we shall ask our perfect theory of progress to allow. It must always be on the look out for every privilege being abused, for every working right becoming a wrong. In this matter I am entirely on the side of the revolutionists. They are really right to be always suspecting human institutions; they are right not to put their trust in princes nor in any child of man. The chieftain chosen to be the friend of the people becomes the enemy of the people; the newspaper started to tell the truth now exists to prevent the truth being told. Here, I say, I felt that I was really at last on the side of the revolutionary. And then I caught my breath again: for I remembered that I was once again on the side of the orthodox.

> Christianity spoke again and said: "I have always maintained that men were naturally backsliders; that human virtue tended of its own nature to rust or to rot; I have always said that human beings as such go wrong, especially happy human beings, especially proud and prosperous human beings. This eternal revolution, this suspicion sustained through centuries, you (being a vague modern) call the doctrine of progress. If you were a philosopher you would call it, as I do, the doctrine of original sin. You may call it the cosmic advance as much as you like; I call it what it is—the Fall."

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