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China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

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Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#121

Post by vkou »

linksnapzz wrote: post #119
vkou wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even including the internment camps, the US still has the largest per-capita prison population in the world. The UK has, for many years, had the most extensive physical surveillance system in the world, with the NSA having one of the more extensive digital surveillance systems.[1] The Department of Defense employs 3.2 million people, 2.2 million of which are military (Active and otherwise). US police forces employ an…

BUT WHAT ABOUT.....!?

I've asked for some reasons for why BRI is an overextension. I was given a few indicators. I respond that those indicators are present, some of them three-fold in the current political situation of the United States.

If those points are the reason China's about to topple over, why hasn't the United States already done so?

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#122

Post by gscott »

vkou wrote: post #121
linksnapzz wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BUT WHAT ABOUT.....!?

I've asked for some reasons for why BRI is an overextension. I was given a few indicators. I respond that those indicators are present, some of them three-fold in the current political situation of the United States. If those points are the reason China's about to topple over, why hasn't the United States already done so?

> If those points are the reason China's about to topple over, why hasn't the United States already done so?

China is not about to topple over. My point is that to get more funds for the BRI, China has decided to go to Hong Kong to do so. There is nothing more to it. I felt the rest of the initiatives are cover for the first one.

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#123

Post by forkLding »

seabrookmx wrote: post #97

Honest question for someone who doesn't know the area well.. Macau and HK are both Cantonese speaking regions. Given that the Infrastructure updates in the area make everything "closer" (in terms of travel time etc), what impact is this having on language? Is this a Montreal type thing where most people are bilingual enough where it doesn't matter? Is Cantonese a de-facto street language in these South Chinese cities…

The Cantonese dialect originally came from the Guangdong/Guangzhou area (Guangdong was originally pronounced Canton, hence the name Cantonese), Hong Kong was originally a fishing village of ~7000 people (so was Shenzhen 40 years ago) before becoming a colony so the language won't disappear.

People from Shenzhen speak Cantonese as well and Shenzhen is already connected to Hong Kong by subway. This Greater Bay Area is really just making something that was more unofficial official. Shenzhen is part of Guangdong province while Guangzhou, the capital of Guangdong is also about 45 minutes by train from Hong Kong. The Greater Bay Area is really more about making it more official that Hong Kong is related as a group with Guangdong.

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#124

Post by spacehunt »

bobthepanda wrote: post #113
spacehunt wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private car drivers don't have votes anyway so even if there's pushback the governments don't care. The taxis, logistics and trucking industries do have political clout, though, and they will be the ones pushing back.

Logistics and trucking involve a lot of cross border trips. I don't know that they would mind all that much.

It messes with their established routes with no gain (as you said they already make cross border trips without issue.)

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#125

Post by geowwy »

oblio wrote: post #45
azurezyq wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's unavoidable actually. Basically US just begins to treat China as an eligible opponent. There were never "friendly" relationships between two superpowers in history if I remember correctly.

There were, up to a point. France and the UK carved up several continents without much tension, after 1850 or so. Provided that China becomes less authoritarian and the US doesn't do something stupid, it's not impossible for both to coexist, while still competing.

The US doesn't care about authoritarianism. They're friendly with plenty of authoritarian states. The issue is that China is pursuing an independent foreign policy instead of following America's lead.

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#126

Post by gscott »

calyth2018 wrote: post #77
gscott wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems China proper has over-extended itself with the BRI and is going to use Hong Kong resources now... The rest of the objectives just seem contrived.

Use Hong Kong's resources? Have you looked at where HK gets its water, its food? Or how many of the listings on the exchange are China related companies?

Financial resources... not physical resources.

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#127

Post by sushid »

elefanten wrote: post #86
arcticbull wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, Beijing's leadership tends to take a very long term view of growth plans. This lines up with my mental model of how they operate.

This is a bit more of a meme than truth

Are you saying that the concept of the hundred year marathon is a meme?

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#128

Post by sonnyblarney »

geowwy wrote: post #125
oblio wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were, up to a point. France and the UK carved up several continents without much tension, after 1850 or so. Provided that China becomes less authoritarian and the US doesn't do something stupid, it's not impossible for both to coexist, while still competing.

The US doesn't care about authoritarianism. They're friendly with plenty of authoritarian states. The issue is that China is pursuing an independent foreign policy instead of following America's lead.

"The issue is that China is pursuing an independent foreign policy instead of following America's lead."

The issue is mostly China grabbing international waters like the S. China Sea as sovereign territory, grabbing Taiwan, pressuring Japan and neighbouring states, and building what will eventually be a string of military bases throughout East and South Asian oceans.

The US, in comparison, makes sure that everyone - including adversaries like China, Russia and Iran - can navigate the Suez, the Panama Canal, Red Sea, Arab/Persian Gulf, S. China Sea, Straits of Taiwan etc.

There would be zero problems, and US Navy presence in Asia would be minimal if China wasn't trying to hustle this outside it's borders.

And FYI Americans do care about authoritarianism, and there is constant pressure on places like Saudi to reform (and FYI there are steady reforms), though yes, it's very secondary.

The paradox is that China is pursuing a macho 'we're the local king' strategy much like Russia, when for it's own benefit, the military escapades are not fruitful. Maybe in China's case there are some advantages, though almost none in the case of Russia.

The new Belt-and-Road strategy is an example of a good project that will have immensely positive results for most players - shenanigans aside. Nobody is against any of this, we are all for it, except for the shifty things like debt-traps to grab ownerships of ports, which will eventually be Chinese navy bases.

China will continue to pursue the authoritarian entrapment of the citizens of HK and Macau, and of course Taiwan, which isn't good for anyone really.

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#129

Post by frosted-flakes »

em500 wrote: post #118
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They weakened status well before the joint agreement. Yet right after Tiananmen Square, and after the joint agreement, they managed to rapidly dream up a selection of 50k families, so they were also far from powerless to act without Deng Xiaoping's approval. Thousands of HKers were leaving after Tiananmen, to anywhere that would take them, so it's not like it would have deprived China of those citizens after 97 hando…

There's a big difference between accepting 50k and 5million people, on both the British and the Chinese side.

50k families is more like 200k–300k people.

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#130

Post by geowwy »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #128
geowwy wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US doesn't care about authoritarianism. They're friendly with plenty of authoritarian states. The issue is that China is pursuing an independent foreign policy instead of following America's lead.

"The issue is that China is pursuing an independent foreign policy instead of following America's lead." The issue is mostly China grabbing international waters like the S. China Sea as sovereign territory, grabbing Taiwan, pressuring Japan and neighbouring states, and building what will eventually be a string of military bases throughout East and South Asian oceans. The US, in comparison, makes sure that everyone -…

>>> The US, in comparison, makes sure that everyone - including adversaries like China, Russia and Iran - can navigate the Suez, the Panama Canal, Red Sea, Arab/Persian Gulf, S. China Sea, Straits of Taiwan etc.

Right now they do. But if conflict breaks out between China and the US you can guarantee the US will use its navy to block all trade with China. This puts China in a very vulnerable position, which is why they're willing to risk upsetting neighbours by aggressively pursuing bases in the South China Sea (as well as the Belt and Road project).

>>> There would be zero problems, and US Navy presence in Asia would be minimal if China wasn't trying to hustle this outside it's borders.

Why do you think that?

>>> China will continue to pursue the authoritarian entrapment of the citizens of HK and Macau, and of course Taiwan, which isn't good for anyone really.

My wife is Taiwanese so I understand the situation pretty well. I just think it's a mistake to put this down to ideology or democracy versus authorianism. It's just two states vying for power, the same thing that's been going since forever.

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