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What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

nytimes.com

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Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#121

Post by mLuby »

helen___keller wrote: post #102
ericdykstra wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is baseless, unscientific blank-slateism, and isn't true anywhere in the world among any demographic segment in any measure. If 10% of Singaporean men are gay would you expect 10% of male plumbers in Singapore to be gay? If women are 30% of the workforce in Canada, would you expect Canadian dental assistants to be 70% male? Disparate outcomes doesn't imply unfair treatment.

"given no structural impediments" is the keyword - without any structural impediments, all your examples should be true. Structural impediments aren't inherently unfair - for example, if gay men simply prefer not to be a plumber for some unknown reason, that is enough to say that there is a structural impediment for gay Singoporean plumbers, and there doesn't have to be anything unfair about that. On the other hand,…

An impediment by its very nature is unfair, even when it's something clearly genetic, because it impedes one group from doing the same as another group. However, to my knowledge there's no evidence of predispositions to fields of study based on (sex or race) genetics despite lots of effort to find scientific basis for such claims.

I can't imagine a good reason why young gay singoporeans wouldn't dream of being plumbers any more than the next kid.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#122

Post by helen___keller »

python_gt_r wrote: post #109
lotaezenwa wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> by definition judgement[sic] biases underlying racism are common across people 0) We never agreed on the definition of "judgment biases", so please do not use the phrase "by definition". Your definition differs from mine.

A very high percent of any race dates only inside their racial/ethnic group. And so on. It's natural preferences. Some people call it racism, specially if it's pointing at white people. I call it your life your choice.

>A very high percent of any race dates only inside their racial/ethnic group. And so on. It's natural preferences.

Are you making this claim or is there evidence that supports it? Would be interested to see a study on that

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#123

Post by williamstein »

lotaezenwa wrote: post #44

This mathematician is not stupid. I would be inclined to believe he understands statistics/anecdotes/academia better than you reading this right now. We only get a small glimpse into the intricacies of his world view and life, and this is what he has chosen to share. This is the story he is telling. Ask yourself why someone in this position would tell this story based on years of lived experience. Do you believe him?…

I just want to support your comment -- I've known "this mathematician" (Edray Goins) personally for two decades, work on similar mathematics to him, and I wrote research letters supporting his tenure and promotion at Purdue. He is definitely NOT stupid, his research is extremely interesting, and his ability to get undergraduates involved in research level mathematics is outstanding. People do racist things, and this is overall very self-destructive for our communities; it helps very much that people like Edray have a voice.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#124

Post by [deleted] »

python_gt_r wrote: post #109
lotaezenwa wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> by definition judgement[sic] biases underlying racism are common across people 0) We never agreed on the definition of "judgment biases", so please do not use the phrase "by definition". Your definition differs from mine.

A very high percent of any race dates only inside their racial/ethnic group. And so on. It's natural preferences. Some people call it racism, specially if it's pointing at white people. I call it your life your choice.

[deleted]

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#125

Post by porphyrogene »

dang wrote: post #101
willpiers wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why? I don't mind being downvoted, and I enjoy reading the responses. Is it infringing on peoples' safe spaces?

Because if you toss off a low-information provocation in an inflammatory thread, that's trolling whether you meant to or not. (But indulging in an in-your-face phrase like "safe spaces" makes me think that maybe you did mean to.) The result tends to be flamewar. Flamewars are equal parts dumb and predictable. Also, we're trying for this place not to turn into scorched earth.

[flagged]

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#126

Post by helen___keller »

mLuby wrote: post #121
helen___keller wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"given no structural impediments" is the keyword - without any structural impediments, all your examples should be true. Structural impediments aren't inherently unfair - for example, if gay men simply prefer not to be a plumber for some unknown reason, that is enough to say that there is a structural impediment for gay Singoporean plumbers, and there doesn't have to be anything unfair about that. On the other hand,…

An impediment by its very nature is unfair, even when it's something clearly genetic, because it impedes one group from doing the same as another group. However, to my knowledge there's no evidence of predispositions to fields of study based on (sex or race) genetics despite lots of effort to find scientific basis for such claims. I can't imagine a good reason why young gay singoporeans wouldn't dream of being plumbe…

Just to clarify, when I write "unfair" I mean specifically that it is something that public policy should potentially address as a public concern.

There are impediments that should not be addressed by public policy - for example , if young gay singoporeans are less likely to become plumbers because gay culture looks poorly upon plumbers, that's unfortunate but shouldn't be a matter of public policy.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#128

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

lotaezenwa wrote: post #44

This mathematician is not stupid. I would be inclined to believe he understands statistics/anecdotes/academia better than you reading this right now. We only get a small glimpse into the intricacies of his world view and life, and this is what he has chosen to share. This is the story he is telling. Ask yourself why someone in this position would tell this story based on years of lived experience. Do you believe him?…

May I ask you a question?

Not for the sake of argument or anything - I'm genuinely curious.

Yes, racist people exist. No doubt here. As do exist many other nasties: dishonest salesmen, stupid teachers, dumb police officers, incompetent doctors - you name it. They make the headlines, but I firmly believe there's not that many of them and most of people are fully adequate and reasonable.

From the article it sounds like there's a full faculty of racist bigots who see maintaining white supremacy as their primary goal. He's universally hated just for the color of his skin and there are few to no people who treat him as equal.

Is it really that bad?

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#129

Post by tptacek »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #128
lotaezenwa wrote: post #44

This mathematician is not stupid. I would be inclined to believe he understands statistics/anecdotes/academia better than you reading this right now. We only get a small glimpse into the intricacies of his world view and life, and this is what he has chosen to share. This is the story he is telling. Ask yourself why someone in this position would tell this story based on years of lived experience. Do you believe him?…

May I ask you a question? Not for the sake of argument or anything - I'm genuinely curious. Yes, racist people exist. No doubt here. As do exist many other nasties: dishonest salesmen, stupid teachers, dumb police officers, incompetent doctors - you name it. They make the headlines, but I firmly believe there's not that many of them and most of people are fully adequate and reasonable. From the article it sounds like…

There is no place in this NYT profile where Goins makes any claim about a "full faculty of racist bigots who see maintaining white supremacy as their primary goal", so that's not a reasonable question to ask.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#130

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

tptacek wrote: post #129
AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I ask you a question? Not for the sake of argument or anything - I'm genuinely curious. Yes, racist people exist. No doubt here. As do exist many other nasties: dishonest salesmen, stupid teachers, dumb police officers, incompetent doctors - you name it. They make the headlines, but I firmly believe there's not that many of them and most of people are fully adequate and reasonable. From the article it sounds like…

There is no place in this NYT profile where Goins makes any claim about a "full faculty of racist bigots who see maintaining white supremacy as their primary goal", so that's not a reasonable question to ask.

Looks like you've dismissed my question on technicality.

I have to admit this is not exactly the answer I was looking for.

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