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The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

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Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#121

Post by chaostheory »

the_af wrote: post #115
chaostheory wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then why do you ask me? Because from my perspective it seems like you had an opinion and then you backed away once I challenged it. You dance around it enough to pretend that the author didn't make a clear opinion. > I only mentioned one aspect (a question, not a conclusion by the way) It sounded rhetorical. Like with other religious wars, we can agree to disagree. From my perspective, I still feel that your origin…

> Because from my perspective it seems like you had an opinion and then you backed away once I challenged it. From my perspective you made a mistake and now you're too proud to admit it. What you "feel" I meant is wrong. I didn't even make a point. And I explicitly told you what I meant! Interesting that you're now framing this as a "religious war". What I think is less interesting is that I have to defend myself aga…

I did not make a mistake. I stand by my opinion as well as the accompanying rationale for making my conclusion.

Here's the anatomy of your initial comment:

1. Statement and rhetorical question echoing the article's main message

2. A conclusion using a summary of the article. The article only has one main conclusion.

Was that comment not an opinion or are you making comments that article summary bots make? Forgive me for making an incorrect assumption.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#122

Post by Cei3oyoh »

ethbro wrote: post #101
throwawaymath wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The greatest challenge to overcome is disbelief that you can do something. I'm deeply skeptical of this. I don't want to assume your background, so please don't take offense to this. But I can only imagine someone is able to seriously believe this if they've never had anything more challenging than their own self-actualization and ambition. You can (and should) believe in yourself as fiercely as you'd like! But the…

I would argue the opposite (that self-belief is the hardest challenge in those in objectively bad circumstances), precisely because of what you phrase as '[these things] will break you down unless you're astronomically lucky.' The manner in which they break most people down is by circumscribing ambition and self confidence. A large part of my family goes into the hills of dirt poor mining Appalachia, so I wouldn't sa…

Argue, based on what?

Certainly the biggest heroes in improving the human condition are not the successful outliers like Chan, but those who believe in equality and put the work toward furthering it. There is no slavery in the US any more, and the thanks for that does not lie with outlier heroes who happened to luck out in the slavery game.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#123

Post by alistairSH »

stcredzero wrote: post #112
alistairSH wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you actually arguing parents should be allowed to self their children into servitude? If so, there's no point debating with you - I find the practice morally reprehensible (and yes, the systems that make such an arrangement in any way palatable are also reprehensible).

Are you actually arguing parents should be allowed to self their children into servitude? No one wants children to be sold into servitude. However, the state impinging into family affairs to the point where it can be 100% prevented is essentially making the state the full de-facto guardians of the children. This is the state of affairs where children are informing on their parents to the state. It's in part up to the…

Sorry, I read your initial response as rather glib about a practice that is generally considered wrong. If that wasn't your intention, I apologize.

I do understand that the contract was legal. And suspect Chan's parents likely gave it great consideration. Doesn't make the practice, or the circumstances that lead to it, any more palatable to me.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#124

Post by wenc »

chaostheory wrote: post #116
tunesmith wrote: post #105

"Chinese people need to be controlled, otherwise they will do whatever they want." Haha... wow, that circular reasoning is so tight it's almost not even a circle anymore. "Chinese people need to be controlled, otherwise they will not be controlled". I have a theory that all circular reasoning can be reduced down to a (probably faulty) axiom or assertion.

For the record, I strongly disagree with Jackie's opinion. It does need more context though. China is a low trust society that doesn't have a strong rule of law. What this translates into is fake medicine, fake food, newly built buildings and bridges that either fall apart or are falling apart, police and low level government officials who need bribes for mundane things and so on. Jackie mainly wants a stronger rule…

> China is a low trust society that doesn't have a strong rule of law. What this translates into is fake medicine, fake food, newly built buildings and bridges that either fall apart or are falling apart, police and low level government officials who need bribes for mundane things and so on.

I'm sure this is all true, but I'm curious, have you lived in China? What's your take on the lived experience in China?

I just wanted to see this from different perspectives, because the United States has many parts that are perceived as hellholes in the abstract (like the city of Chicago where I live), but in reality daily life is quite normal and livable.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#125

Post by rifung »

ethbro wrote: post #80
dbingham wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what the previous commenter was reacting to in your post was not your defense of Chan an his memoir as inspirational, per se, but rather the specific phrase "If he can do it anyone can" as ignoring the fact that Chan -- and celebrities like him -- are extreme outliers, and extremely lucky for their success. Yes, Chan worked his ass off. But to have the success he did, he also had to have an insane amount of l…

The greatest challenge to overcome is disbelief that you can do something. Heroes have a place, precisely because they inspire. I get what you're saying, but in any system having an aspirational role model is a benefit!

> I get what you're saying, but in any system having an aspirational role model is a benefit!

I will say there is a benefit but whether it's a net benefit is not always true as we can't ignore the downsides.

For example, if everyone believes that you can just work hard and succeed, then they may choose to ignore the great disadvantages certain people have. Indeed this isn't just a philosophical issue as this is the reality even in American politics with regard to having social programs.

I think this is actually even true of people whose stories qualify them to become "heroes". Often because they were able to do something they think it must be possible for everyone else without realizing how many things were working in their favor. There's a psychological phenomenon describing how people who went through the same experience as you are actually less likely to help you because for whatever reason, they seem to remember it was being easier than it was.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#126

Post by mac01021 »

jdietrich wrote: post #94
oarabbus_ wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm reminded of a Quora answer by a guy who loved fighting, one phrase he used stuck out at me. "Great fighters have to kind of like getting hit." Floyd Mayweather disputes this.

It's not always terribly exciting to watch, but Mayweather's pathological aversion to getting punched is certainly effective.

Never thought I'd hear an aversion to being punched described as pathological.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#127

Post by stcredzero »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #120
stcredzero wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you understand the plight of being an exploited child? I understand what it's like to be sent away to school by one's parents to experience significant hardship. It's not a matter where one should cry out for more state intervention, lightly.

This does not answer the question.

One can always find a singular example of something really horrible, then try to use the emotional energy of that to drive their point home. In most cases, and in this case, there are other issues which you can't disentangle so easily.

My reply does indeed answer the question, as to the part of the experience of such a child I could understand. In particular, I was severely abused by a classmate, and felt unable to ask for help. I felt a great many things about my experience, and I know this from my personal experience: The POV of the child is truly paramount. It can turn a voluntary contractual experience of privilege into a horrible coercive one, or something that someone might call "indentured servitude" into something positive. It may well be that what appear to be the exact same circumstances are one thing to one child, and the opposite to another, or that it's remembered as a mix of both.

My lived experience tell me this, and in light of that experience, your comments strike me less likely to be a genuine concern for and understanding of those experiences and more as a rhetorical tactic using people's protective feelings towards children.

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#128

Post by [deleted] »

vinceguidry wrote: post #25
stcredzero wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, sure, it would be way better if Hong Kong weren't the colonial hell-hole it was. In what sense is Hong Kong a colonial hell-hole? (Take this not as a challenge, but as a question from someone who is unfamiliar with the idea.) Is there an underclass trapped there? Do the people in it feel trapped?

It was described in the article. A lot of economic activity there is only a few steps removed from human trafficking. And I'm sure a lot of that goes on there as well, but it's hard to track for obvious reasons.

[deleted]

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#129

Post by stcredzero »

alistairSH wrote: post #123
stcredzero wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you actually arguing parents should be allowed to self their children into servitude? No one wants children to be sold into servitude. However, the state impinging into family affairs to the point where it can be 100% prevented is essentially making the state the full de-facto guardians of the children. This is the state of affairs where children are informing on their parents to the state. It's in part up to the…

Sorry, I read your initial response as rather glib about a practice that is generally considered wrong. If that wasn't your intention, I apologize. I do understand that the contract was legal. And suspect Chan's parents likely gave it great consideration. Doesn't make the practice, or the circumstances that lead to it, any more palatable to me.

I do understand that the contract was legal. And suspect Chan's parents likely gave it great consideration. Doesn't make the practice, or the circumstances that lead to it, any more palatable to me.

Very often, the reality is quite nuanced. What are your feelings about parents who pressure children to practicing sports or music for long hours from a young age? How is such a school different? At what point should a 3rd party intervene?

Re: The Painful Price of Becoming Jackie Chan

#130

Post by aasasd »

karmelapple wrote: post #67
vinceguidry wrote: post #17

The author doesn't want to treat Chan's insistence on his account being an inspirational one and just wants to see it as sad. I'm reminded of a Quora answer by a guy who loved fighting, one phrase he used stuck out at me. "Great fighters have to kind of like getting hit." You can't push your body to its very limits without getting injured. Planning and preparing for it is not sad, it's smart. Chan's account should be…

> "Great fighters have to kind of like getting hit." I'd generalize it to: "Great craftspeople have to kind of like the part of their craft that is unpleasant to 99% of the population." Someone who excels at playing violin, writing computer software, public speaking, etc., generally does not find the "unpleasant" part to be "tiring", "boring", or "work". Instead, it's just part of the overall experience, which is a n…

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