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How the Valley treats experienced people

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Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#121

Post by gdubs »

Young Michael Jordan could leap high and perform dazzling feats in mid-air. Old Michael Jordan had tired legs, but could destroy the competition with an insanely tight post-up game, and a virtually undefeatable fade-away jump shot.

I’ve personally always felt incredibly fortunate to get to work with people who’ve been in the industry a long time; you can learn a lot from them. And while you sometimes can get a “step” on them with your youth, they’ll often school you with the fundamentals.

This is part of the diversity conversation — having a team composed of people from all walks of life is a competitive advantage. But it takes an enlightened “coach” to see it.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#122

Post by watwut »

nikanj wrote: post #69
humanrebar wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example, I find that technical interviews for experienced developers tend to be harder, which makes me infer an "up or out" culture. A dev with 20 years of experience isn't even evaluated for normal individual contributor roles, instead they are chief code wizard or unqualified. Younger devs, especially college hires, are given more leeway to train on the job and grow into their level of aptitude and interest. A…

I think there’s an element of expectation there. The college hire might grow to be a grand wizard in 10 years, and become a massive asset to the company. It is still possible the older person is going to become a wizard later, but the question is: if they have it in them, why aren’t they a wizard already? College hires are seen as unscratched lottery tickets, older workers are seen as known variables. I’m not saying…

1.) Average stay in company is 2 years, so whether someone grows wizzard in 10 years is immaterial.

2.) If you are hiring for vague sense that person grows in 10 years, you are extremely likely to be biased for all kind if cultural and demographic signals that have zero with actual performance.

3.) Old are not wizards now, for dame reason why young are not wizards now. Nobody can know everything and wizardly is moving target - half composed of myths and half of smokescreen.

It is not to say that great people don't exist, they absolutely do. But they all have expertise in what they do now and when they change jobs, there is learning curve.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#123

Post by EliRivers »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #92
nikanj wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there’s an element of expectation there. The college hire might grow to be a grand wizard in 10 years, and become a massive asset to the company. It is still possible the older person is going to become a wizard later, but the question is: if they have it in them, why aren’t they a wizard already? College hires are seen as unscratched lottery tickets, older workers are seen as known variables. I’m not saying…

Close. But I think it's more along the lines of: "This kid (i.e., recent grad) reminds me of me. My shit doesn't stink. With my care, I bet his won't either." vs "There's no way I wanna be that old guy / gal. I deny the fact that he / she could be my future." Basically, ego vs fear. I suspect this confirmation bias contributes to various isms. Racism, sexism, etc. That is, they are not me, and I refuse to see they ca…

"This kid (i.e., recent grad) reminds me of me."

Ah, "culture fit". Looks like me, dresses like me, educated like me, thinks like me.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#124

Post by undreren »

rb808 wrote: post #117
slics wrote: post #88

If one thinks 35+ is to old to code, well I have news for you. At 35+ you learn how to manage time and prioritize better. Life throws another ranch in your bucket of problems, marriage and children. When you are young, you are hired as an engineer to work 40 hours, which we all know very well that working for startups that means 80 hours or you are not putting good effort. Well with a family that’s not possible, as y…

I agree with you but if a startup really wants people working 80 hours a week, then a family man who wants to work 40 hrs isn't a good match for the firm.

There exists no good match for a company that pays their employees for 40 hours but demands 80.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#125

Post by [deleted] »

slics wrote: post #88

If one thinks 35+ is to old to code, well I have news for you. At 35+ you learn how to manage time and prioritize better. Life throws another ranch in your bucket of problems, marriage and children. When you are young, you are hired as an engineer to work 40 hours, which we all know very well that working for startups that means 80 hours or you are not putting good effort. Well with a family that’s not possible, as y…

[deleted]

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#126

Post by triviatise »

cathames wrote: post #13

Luck is a huge part of success. It's mythology that if you work hard enough for long enough that the world will become your oyster. Sweat and ingenuity are often necessary but not necessarily sufficient means to financial gain. No one launches from the same starting line nor runs along the same track. And don't forget that all the other smart folks out there are ravenously competing against you for those hotly desire…

life is statistics. The more at bats you get, the more likely one of them will be a home run. Tenacity, hard work, risk tolerance, and good decision making give you more at bats.

There is a second path too which is slow and steady wins the race. If you live well below your means and invest your money you will also end up with enough money that you don't need to work. My wife's private school just got a $3M donation from their janitor of 50 years when he passed away. If you save 30-40% of your pre tax income, then you will be able to retire at a reasonably young age, with a very high probability.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#127

Post by ryanwaggoner »

slics wrote: post #88

If one thinks 35+ is to old to code, well I have news for you. At 35+ you learn how to manage time and prioritize better. Life throws another ranch in your bucket of problems, marriage and children. When you are young, you are hired as an engineer to work 40 hours, which we all know very well that working for startups that means 80 hours or you are not putting good effort. Well with a family that’s not possible, as y…

Life throws another ranch in your bucket of problems

Did you mean "wrench", as in "throw a wrench in the works"?

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#128

Post by sokoloff »

taude wrote: post #105

Living and working in the Boston tech market, I have a lot of thoughts about Ageism. It's very much alive and well here. There's also a severe case of Elitism if you didn't go to MIT or Harvard, too. I'd like to think more about this and write dome some elegant thoughts, but... I'll sum it up as it's a little humbling but massively humiliating. It's extremely frustrated being interviewed by people with obviously way…

> I'm pretty sure many companies hiring is explicitly catered to aging people out, or at least setting a different bar for older engineers.

> Also, when I do get a job offer it's for quite a bit lower salary that much younger, less experienced people who are two or three years out of school are making in this market.

Which is it? Do you want an older engineer to have the same hiring bar and same compensation or a higher bar and higher compensation?

Realistically, there should be no "same bar, but higher compensation" option. If I'm paying you more, it's because you're better, not because you have more candles on your birthday cake.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#129

Post by UncleMeat »

vinceguidry wrote: post #93
danohuiginn wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possible, but decreasingly likely. The US is now one of the countries where your success in life is most fully determined by your family background. e.g. it's in the bottom third of the OECD for income mobility, and the absolute worst in the OECD for how much your family background determines your educational success https://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobi... https://www.oecd.org/centrodemexico/m…

These statistics all measure the wrong things. Let me tell you a story of two families. My step-dad was thrust into a parenting role over his siblings, a sister and a brother at an early age. The brother died early, in a train accident. My step-dad married my mother and they're still together, over 20 years later. His sister is on her second marriage. My aunt's family is constantly teetering on the edge of poverty, h…

At scale, these differences even out. The statistics don't capture individual behavior. They capture large trends. That's a feature not a bug.

Re: How the Valley treats experienced people

#130

Post by DJHenk »

jsjohnst wrote: post #81
ovi256 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Companies can't tell the age from a resume. Companies can't add 18 + length of schooling + length of career ?

You shouldn’t list your entire career on your resume, just the past 10-15 years. Also, assuming “18 + length of schooling” is bad too. You’d be way off on my age then too (I graduated HS several years early).

> Also, assuming “18 + length of schooling” is bad too.

That does not mean that it doesn't happen. I mean, we already established that we're dealing with short-sighted people here.

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