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Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

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Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#121
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing in the _world_ has intrinsic value. Obviously, this an opinion, but I do believe it has strong epistemological backing. An easy overview of the opinion by wired: https://www.wired.com/story/bitcoin-has-no-intrinsic-value-n... , a 1970s era discussion by a historian economist: https://fee.org/articles/the-fallacy-of-intrinsic-value/ , and a deep dive the theory itself: https://mises.org/library/introduction-va…

Labor is the principal value of a currency. I'm guessing you are a libertarian. Maybe you should learn about how commerce, financial instruments, and debt work before saying money has no intrinsic value. Otherwise, if money has no intrinsic value then why work for it? Maybe we should go be communists. As Labor is the principal value of currency, so is debt the obligations of its members. When you get a loan you are n…

From your perspective you can compare crypto to gold as a store of value. If you hold a bar of gold in your safe, does it have any "intrinsic value?" Similarly to Bitcoin, gold is expensive to mine.

But moving on, Bitcoin is not just a store of value. It's electronically transmittable without middle men. You can think of it as gold you can teleport across the globe. Lots of people would find this to be "intrinsic value."

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#123
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Energy production is heavily regulated and centralized to a few entities. Very much like financial institutions. It's highly unlikely that the free market somehow sorts this out in the future, considering that it's the free market that gave rise to these power law distributions to begin with.

I get your point, but I'm not really sure what the purpose behind your argument is. There will always be some limiting factor or theoretical vulnerability. If it's not ISPs/Internet infrastructure, then its the exchanges and fiat on ramps. But yet, its been pretty hard to kill illegal filesharing, VPNs, etc. It's even harder to stop those things when the population doesn't believe in legislating against it, at least…

My point is that neither PoW nor PoS are decentralized. Which was in response to the original comment.

I’ll let other people prognosticate as to what, if anything, that means for their future.

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#124
post #109
post #39

> state channels (ETH’s version of Lightning), but it is unclear whether main-chain issued ERC20 type tokens will be portable to this environment. The Raiden project is the closest thing to Lightning, was recently deployed to the main chain, and explicitly supports any ERC20 token. The article says Plasma is dead because...Peter Todd, a Bitcoin dev, claims they had a similar idea and rejected it? Meanwhile, on Ethere…

Can you share those fixes?

First, some Proof-of-Stake setup:

1. Assume we have some set of "validators" who control the global consensus process. They come to consensus on the current global state of the system. These validators are vaguely analogous to miners in Proof-of-Work consensus.

2. These validators have coins bonded as collateral in exchange for more voting power in the consensus process.

One key idea necessary for Proof-of-Stake is to punish Byzantine validators, i.e., those who deviate from the consensus protocol, by destroying their bonded stake. If you misbehave, then you lose some proportion of your collateral. Thus, validators have incentive for participation (from rewards and fees) and a _disincentive_ for malicious behavior.

This is in contrast to Proof-of-Work consensus, where there is no way to punish a specific miner that misbehaves--we cannot programmatically take away physical mining ASICs. Changing the Proof-of-Work function is only an absolute last resort as it unfairly punishes the other honest miners.

So what constitutes misbehavior? When can we confidently punish another validator? An example is when a validator publishes signed attestations for conflicting forks--an example of equivocation. When presented with signed evidence of equivocation, the honest majority of validators can agree to punish the equivocator. This punishment system solves the original "nothing-at-stake" problem where a validator has no disincentive not to contribute to both sides of a fork.

On another note, the OP seems to misunderstand the fundamental consistency vs availability (in the event of a partition) trade-off that consensus algorithms must to make. Bitcoin's Proof-of-Work is more AP with probabilistic eventual consistency. In the event of a partition, the side with less mining power will make transactions unaware of the partition. When the partition heals, all transactions on the weaker side will revert, effectively double spending all transaction recipients on that side.

In contrast, many Proof-of-Stake protocols use a more traditional PBFT-style consensus process which favors consistency over availability. In the case of a partition, the weaker side will simply become unavailable (if it contains less than 1/3 of the voting power). In the event that no partition has >2/3+ of the voting power, the entire system will become unavailable. Also in contrast to PoW's eventual consistency, PBFT-style Proof-of-Stake allows for finality as soon as the validators come to consensus on the next block.

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#125
post #38
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly I would have absolutely no problem with them if these things were obscure little open source projects like most tech experiments are. When I first read the Bitcoin paper I was skeptical but interested to see where they'd take it. My problem is that these projects are simultaneously treated as humble little experiments and the perfect future of the global financial system, deserving of hundreds of millions of…

> In short, the crypto hate is a reaction to the crypto hype. Actually, as someone who was very interested in Bitcoin in the early days of 2011-2012, I disagree. If anything, the hate on HN was even greater back then, way before Bitcoin became hyped. So many people were convinced it was a pyramid scheme. It was clear to anyone familiar with the Bitcoin community back then that there were a lot of highly technical, ta…

> But even back in 2011, there was a very high number of HNers who seemed personally affronted by the very idea that money was a social agreement. They seemed to believe that money was some kind of official, government activity, end of story. And that anyone who believed otherwise was an evil heretic, to be ridiculed.

This x10. If I were to anthropomorphise HN it would be a middle aged white collar worker, pretty smart, making fairly keen observations about the evolution of a company's product and social structure, but in the dark about executive-level play. Financially conservative, thinks of money as a necessary evil. Stashes money in the bank and is highly suspicious of financial risk.

To this character Bitcoin is a threat because it mixes that which they care strongly about (open source, distributed systems, impact) with that which they've largely ignored and of which they are suspicious (money).

Edit: grammar.

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#127

He’s criticizing Eth for being a “ science experiment”? The entire crypto ecosystem is just an experiment, including bitcoin. It’s all immature and unstable.

I've always tried to tell people that ask me about crypto currencies that not only do they not have any intrinsic value, but the only positive value that they have is entropy. I explained it like this over Christmas dinner, lets say I wanted to start a new commodity, for arguments sake lets say that this new commodity is based on matches. Matches have a value, you light them and they produce a certain amount of energ…

The difference, however, is that the compute is actually doing something: trustlessly verifying the ledger (or chain). Whereas in your description to your family members, your burning the match does nothing of any value, for anyone, for any reason.

I find many other issues with your framing of bitcoin, but the above is the most glaring, to me.

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#128

TL;DR: A long, insightful, and at least partially correct critique of the "state" of Ethereum as of today. My humble 0.02 is that what's current is immature and unstable, but there's a decent chance that Ethereum, or Bitcoin, or both, will at some point in the future provide some interesting technical solutions/services. The fact that Ethereum is not there yet is not a good enough argument for me.

Other than making some people really rich, what problems would it solve that aren’t better solved by existing solutions which don’t burn energy to create secure entropy?

seems that you like many people are very preoccupied that some people that took a huge risk got back a huge reward. This is totally irrelevant but keeps coming up in arguments stressed like in your sentence.

Re: Why I’m so “against” Ethereum

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

gcmode=archive is not required for a full node. It indexes every transaction in a database, which is unnecessary for most applications. It’s similar to txindex in bitcoind, but the Ethereum db is already much larger, so it takes weeks to sync in this mode.

I see, the problem was that it's hard to find documentation about what's needed for an Ethereum full node. As I'm just running Bitcoin full node, I don't have any personal experience with it.

Parity CLI options: https://wiki.parity.io/Configuring-Parity-Ethereum#cli-optio...

Geth CLI options: https://github.com/ethereum/go-ethereum/wiki/Command-Line-Op...

Understand the differences between syncing, validating, and pruning, then it becomes simpler... https://github.com/ethereum/go-ethereum/pull/1889 https://github.com/ethereum/go-ethereum/wiki/Tracing:-Introd...

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