How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated • Hacker News Board

Re: How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated

#121

Post by Izkata » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 6:53 PM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #117

elsonrodriguez wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The first is piracy probably didn’t lead to the failure of the Dreamcast. Sega led to the failure of the Dreamcast. They had failed fans with the SegaCD. Released the 32X as a "bridge" between the 16bit and 32bit consoles (then promptly abandoned it). They released the Saturn with almost no fanfare in the US, and with last minute architectural hacks to make it pass as a 3D console (just barely). By the time the Dre…

A lot of people were stoked for the Dreamcast upon its release. What ultimately did it in was the PS2 -- a superior console in virtually every respect, released just two years later (in the USA).

One year later in the US.

The thing I remember as a kid was the hype for the PS2 building right as the Dreamcast was released. This was still in the era where most families would only have one console, so they ended up saving their money aiming for a PS2 instead of a Dreamcast.

I think if the Dreamcast was released sooner or later it would have done better than it did. Either before the PS2 hype, or closer to the PS2 so the hype died down a bit.

Re: How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated

#122

Post by laumars » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 6:54 PM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #117

elsonrodriguez wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The first is piracy probably didn’t lead to the failure of the Dreamcast. Sega led to the failure of the Dreamcast. They had failed fans with the SegaCD. Released the 32X as a "bridge" between the 16bit and 32bit consoles (then promptly abandoned it). They released the Saturn with almost no fanfare in the US, and with last minute architectural hacks to make it pass as a 3D console (just barely). By the time the Dre…

A lot of people were stoked for the Dreamcast upon its release. What ultimately did it in was the PS2 -- a superior console in virtually every respect, released just two years later (in the USA).

> What ultimately did it in was the PS2 -- a superior console in virtually every respect

I beg to differ. Graphically it was, but it should be given it was two years younger. Sound quality it was too but honestly very few people would have noticed on the typical set up of that era.

However the Dreamcast has 4 controller ports built into the console itself, rumble packs from day one, a portable gaming unit (ok, that was a bit of a novelty), support for using your save games on actual arcades, easy way of sharing save games, online gaming (a good 4 years before the competition too!), downloadable content (which was typically free back then).

The Dreamcast was easily the more interesting console out of the two of them. If the reputation of the two companies had been equal then the DC would likely have won out. But the PS1 was already a proven success and Sega had messed their fans about with all the failed Megadrive /Genesis addons. So a great many gamers didn’t even give the Dreamcast a chance. In a sense, their expectations became a self fulfilling prophecy.

I was gutted when the DC failed. No console before nor since has really captured my imagination quite as much as the Dreamcast did. But ultimately I wasn’t surprised either because Sony had already won even before releasing the PS2. Few people cared about Sega (or Nintendo) at that point.

Re: How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated

#123

Post by bitwize » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 6:56 PM UTC

at-fates-hands wrote: post #87

new299 wrote: post #20

There are two points to note. The first is piracy probably didn’t lead to the failure of the Dreamcast. They didn’t sell many of the consoles... if it was a piracy issue then you’d expect they’d sell many consoles, but few games (the line up of games was really good). The article mentions Ikaruga a lot. It worth noting that Ikaruga for the Dreamcast was released a year after the Dreamcast was cancelled. They probably…

> The first is piracy probably didn’t lead to the failure of the Dreamcast. I had a large group of friends who got the Dreamcast right when it came out. I still remember many of the commercials touting the AI of the console and the end of their commercials showing the light on the op of the console glowing with the voice over "it's thinking". Everybody in our group wanted it because the Dreamcast touted the ability o…

Sony did the same BS with the PS2, whose MIPS core was called the "Emotion Engine" because it was touted as being powerful enough to allow the console to feel, or at least simulate, emotions.

The turn of the millennium was a weird time for gaming.

Re: How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated

#124

Post by just_myles » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 6:56 PM UTC

new299 wrote: post #20

There are two points to note. The first is piracy probably didn’t lead to the failure of the Dreamcast. They didn’t sell many of the consoles... if it was a piracy issue then you’d expect they’d sell many consoles, but few games (the line up of games was really good). The article mentions Ikaruga a lot. It worth noting that Ikaruga for the Dreamcast was released a year after the Dreamcast was cancelled. They probably…

Yup. Piracy would have increased console sales and it didn't. Really as simple as that. The software was definitely there at the time. But, Sega you know, is Sega and ultimately all the good faith they had built in Western countries with the master system and Genesis had worn out with their mediocre add-ons and console (Saturn. I might add had great games.).

Re: How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated

#125

Post by larrik » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 6:59 PM UTC

laumars wrote: post #122

bitwize wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people were stoked for the Dreamcast upon its release. What ultimately did it in was the PS2 -- a superior console in virtually every respect, released just two years later (in the USA).

> What ultimately did it in was the PS2 -- a superior console in virtually every respect I beg to differ. Graphically it was, but it should be given it was two years younger. Sound quality it was too but honestly very few people would have noticed on the typical set up of that era. However the Dreamcast has 4 controller ports built into the console itself, rumble packs from day one, a portable gaming unit (ok, that w…

AS I remember it, the mindshare of the PS2 even so long before launch was immense. Sony's marketing killed the Dreamcast with ridiculous promises that really didn't pan out. You can't just look back and compare the systems, the idea of the PS2 killed the DC.

Re: How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated

#126

Post by yardie » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 7:03 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #65

yardie wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it played as big a role as people tend to remember. There were a lot of forces in play that contributed to its demise. The biggest one being the PS2. Even though the Dreamcast had similar or better specs than the PS2 it wasn’t considered a real 3D platform by a lot of the game magazine critics. It was released on time unlike the PS2 and XBox so they were comparing shipping hardware to fancy, not factual…

> Even though the Dreamcast had similar or better specs than the PS2 it wasn’t considered a real 3D platform by a lot of the game magazine critics. Wat? That sounds like you confused the Saturn and DC. The Saturn had iffy hardware choices for 3D (because nobody saw the PlayStation coming), but the DC was a 3D system through and through. I don't recall anyone at the time claiming otherwise.

> That sounds like you confused the Saturn and DC.

No, the logic was the game critics were underwhelmed by the 3D hardware of the DC at the time. While it was state of the art for 1998. When Sega started shipping the DC Sony put out videos of PS2 previews and DC sales tanked. Also, at $499 the Saturn was DOA. No one but enthusiasts could afford that.

Part of it was the DC came out in between cycles. An undecided buyer would sit out purchasing waiting for all 3 consoles to arrive. By then the DC was years old hardware wise.

Re: How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated

#127

Post by laumars » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 7:16 PM UTC

larrik wrote: post #125

laumars wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What ultimately did it in was the PS2 -- a superior console in virtually every respect I beg to differ. Graphically it was, but it should be given it was two years younger. Sound quality it was too but honestly very few people would have noticed on the typical set up of that era. However the Dreamcast has 4 controller ports built into the console itself, rumble packs from day one, a portable gaming unit (ok, that w…

AS I remember it, the mindshare of the PS2 even so long before launch was immense. Sony's marketing killed the Dreamcast with ridiculous promises that really didn't pan out. You can't just look back and compare the systems, the idea of the PS2 killed the DC.

I don’t recall Sony marketing the PS2 that heavily compared to the DC (nor even the Xbox). But memory can be fallible.

The argument I was proposing was that the mindshare was in anticipation of the PS2 because of how the PS1 vs Saturn war panned out. Gamers can be loyal pack animals and Sega had already lost their fan base before the DC was even released thanks to the success of the PS1.

> Dreamcast with ridiculous promises that really didn't pan out.

I don’t get your point there. Everything the DC promised to do it delivered on. Technically speaking it was a success - very much ahead of its time in a great many ways. It just didn’t sell.

Re: How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated

#128

Post by busterarm » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 7:48 PM UTC

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #56

I was heavily into burning DC ROMs back in the day. Its most valuable utility was making backups of the games we owned, as our first copy of Sonic Adventure 2 became scratched and nearly unreadable after awhile. The backups allowed me to keep our "critical" games like Soul Calibur, MvC2, and Power Stone 2 (that one cost a pretty penny) in their cases while we used the backups. It also allowed a handful of custom soun…

What!? "I wanna take you for a ride!"

The music is one of the most memorable parts of MvC2. It pretty much sat as the capstone of a decade of fusion jazz soundtracks that seemed to dominate Japanese games, fighting games and Capcom games in particular.

Re: How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated

#129

Post by AdmiralAsshat » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 7:58 PM UTC

busterarm wrote: post #128

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #56

I was heavily into burning DC ROMs back in the day. Its most valuable utility was making backups of the games we owned, as our first copy of Sonic Adventure 2 became scratched and nearly unreadable after awhile. The backups allowed me to keep our "critical" games like Soul Calibur, MvC2, and Power Stone 2 (that one cost a pretty penny) in their cases while we used the backups. It also allowed a handful of custom soun…

What!? "I wanna take you for a ride!" The music is one of the most memorable parts of MvC2. It pretty much sat as the capstone of a decade of fusion jazz soundtracks that seemed to dominate Japanese games, fighting games and Capcom games in particular.

Context:

Once upon a time I had a stomach virus. The virus left me running to the bathroom frequently, and at its worst stage left me hunched over in the bathroom for the better part of an hour. Additionally, the only separation between the adjacent bedroom and the bathroom was not even a proper door as much as a stall door--it was very easy to hear whatever was going on in the next room.

During this time, my younger brother was in the next room playing MvC2 on the Dreamcast. My brother had this annoying habit of just leaving the system on and walking away when he went to go do something else, rather than turning off the system or the TV. So he did as he usually does and walked away after a match, leaving the game running at the versus menu character selection screen. And so for the next 40 minutes, I was trapped in the bathroom, too nauseated to move, and listening to this on repeat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY-CeeQLCE4

It was after this incident that I decided to change MvC2's soundtrack.

Re: How the Dreamcast Copy Protection Was Defeated

#130

Post by busterarm » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 8:00 PM UTC

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #129

busterarm wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What!? "I wanna take you for a ride!" The music is one of the most memorable parts of MvC2. It pretty much sat as the capstone of a decade of fusion jazz soundtracks that seemed to dominate Japanese games, fighting games and Capcom games in particular.

Context: Once upon a time I had a stomach virus. The virus left me running to the bathroom frequently, and at its worst stage left me hunched over in the bathroom for the better part of an hour. Additionally, the only separation between the adjacent bedroom and the bathroom was not even a proper door as much as a stall door--it was very easy to hear whatever was going on in the next room. During this time, my younger…

Fair point. I will say though that leaving this game on Character Select for a while and that music is pretty much a universal experience for MvC2 owners and for most of them one of the things they love about the game.