Live data from Hacker News

Developer on Call

henrikwarne.com

121–130 of 246 posts

Re: Developer on Call

#121
post #76

Here's how my company does it: - $200 for being available for the week. Must be within 1hr of the office should the call require you to come in to use special equipment - All calls first are screened by our Sales team: "Can this wait until business hours tomorrow? There is a substantial call out fee" - 1hr minimum for phone support - 3hr minimum for us logging in with our laptops - 1.5x rate for calls during "days" (…

This is a pretty good system that I think I would be happy working under.

My only question is, is it possible to game the system? Meaning, deploy some sloppy code or config the week you know you're on call so you get a few extra 2.0x stints @ 3 hours a piece (on other words, try to manufacture your lazy Sunday Netflix scenario)?

Re: Developer on Call

#122
post #91

My take, having managed dev and worked closely with Support, for a growing company. During Initial days, Initial Dev team is involved in support. And it is amazing. You get real feedback and good insights into how user uses the system. This pays off immensely. Once the product and team grows, the real need of exclusive support becomes evident. And it becomes quite clear, just like not all support folks can code, not…

Great answer!

What's also important is that management is good at prioritizing what's important, and what isn't.

Depending on many circumstances, you just can't fix everything.

Re: Developer on Call

#123
post #89

Kayak.com co-founder Paul English on this topic (2010): "The engineers and I handle customer support. When I tell people that, they look at me like I'm smoking crack. They say, "Why would you pay an engineer $150,000 to answer phones when you could pay someone in Arizona $8 an hour?" If you make the engineers answer e-mails and phone calls from the customers, the second or third time they get the same question, they'…

This sounds so nice in theory. All those pesky developers refusing to fix their horrible code. While in reality at least in my experience the developer would be very much happy to fix the code, it's just that you don't get any time to do that. It's only new features and new products.

> This sounds so nice in theory. All those pesky developers refusing to fix their horrible code.

This might be the niche I'm working in, but that does not sound all that unreasonable to me; I certainly know the type.

At first, there is a debate whether there really is a bug (instead of giving a trained user and the according support staff the benefit of the doubt), then there is a debate whether the bug should really be fixed or the thing is delayed at nauseam ("need more information" without even having skimmed the damn code at least once). And when the business side finally puts their foot down, the defect is "fixed" with some minimalistic, ad-hoc duct-tape solution that guarantees that five other bugs will pop up in the future because of it.

So while I agree with your second point, that doesn't invalidate the first. These kinds of devs actually do exist (with various degrees of intensity, of course). I'm not sure if the archetype is really fit support work, though.

Re: Developer on Call

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I largely believe developers should be responsible for their work, which includes meeting the support requirements out of hours, and understanding the tooling and instrumentation required to keep their work healthy. However, hiring people and not telling them this is part of the job is insanely unfair. People should get paid for being on-call. Further still, if something is going to wake me up during the night, I wou…

> I largely believe developers should be responsible for their work Definitely > which includes meeting the support requirements out of hours Definitely not

Why not? Where does that responsibility end?

Re: Developer on Call

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I largely believe developers should be responsible for their work Definitely > which includes meeting the support requirements out of hours Definitely not

Division of labor is a thing. I'm good at transforming customer interactions into requirements and then transforming requirements into working code. I'm not good with dealing with issues with a deployed product while I should be busy living my life.

So push the burden onto somebody else? Why aren't they allowed to "be busying living [their] life"?

Re: Developer on Call

#126
the article doesnt touch on it, and im not exactly a developer myself, but Does on-call developer mean everything?

I remember starting out early in my trade craft. Im an engine mechanic now, but years ago i worked mechanical maintenance for a state psychiatric hospital. The job came with an on-call pager about the size of a box of chocolates, but there was a limited and well defined scope. HVAC and the standby power generators for example were considered "priority one" where I had to be on-site in 30 minutes or less. busted light in the bathroom however was not an on-call priority.

It wasnt a rule when i started, but i eventually turned it into one: you cannot tack on extra work for an on-call event. example: im not replacing lights or repainting lines in the garage because im "already here" for a faulty transfer switch.

Re: Developer on Call

#127
post #9

I have done it for 1 year and half and I’ll never, ever do it again. As I learnt, my sleep is worth much more than any amount of money.

One solution to this problem is to "follow-the-sun" if you have multiple teams across the globe.

That depends on having competent management, or a company large enough to have a global team.

Small startup that's still iterating or just found market fit? Doubtful.

Re: Developer on Call

#128
post #89

Kayak.com co-founder Paul English on this topic (2010): "The engineers and I handle customer support. When I tell people that, they look at me like I'm smoking crack. They say, "Why would you pay an engineer $150,000 to answer phones when you could pay someone in Arizona $8 an hour?" If you make the engineers answer e-mails and phone calls from the customers, the second or third time they get the same question, they'…

This sounds so nice in theory. All those pesky developers refusing to fix their horrible code. While in reality at least in my experience the developer would be very much happy to fix the code, it's just that you don't get any time to do that. It's only new features and new products.

It's actually more complex than that, even. I'm speaking from being an engineer for some time (~13 years) and a product manager now. The issue is that Customer A, B, C, D, and E want Feature A to behave in one way, and Customer N, M, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V want Feature A to behave in another way, and those two ways are mutually exclusive insofar as it can't merely be configurable, since Features B-F rely on Feature A behaving in one way or another.

So which set of customers do you please? How do you ensure that customer requests for behavior changes, or customers being surprised by application behavior doesn't result in a scope creep that expands the requirements of your application to an unsustainable level?

How do you ensure that your business doesn't get coopted by BoM (Buckets of Money) to basically be a contract development house and eventual acquisition target by your largest enterprise customer while ignoring/harming all your other customers who were earlier adopters?

There's a lot of jokes about bugs actually being features, but at some point if an application behaves in a certain way long enough and that behavior is relied on elsewhere, changing it is a new feature with all the consequences that come along with that, even if the new behavior is strictly more correct.

All of these factors need to be balanced in determining what the best path is to tread in your software. At a certain scale, most of these questions can be addressed organically, maybe by the developers themselves, but at a certain scale it's just not feasible to interface customers directly with developers. You are working on "new features and new products", because customer issues get turned into identification of new markets to solve those issues, which are serviced by new features and new products rather than by "fixing" the old products and features, which would break it for other customers.

Re: Developer on Call

#129

I work at a company where On Call has become a monster. Week on, week off, no extra pay. 1) you get calls / emails from the clients. Anything from a P1 everything is on fire incident down to "we've seen some random SQL agent job has failed, drop what you are doing and give us an RCA now" 2) you get automated alerts via systems you dont own, like SQL Sentry, where someone somewhere years ago put in an alert that says…

That's poor management. IMO, you should find another job and write a glassdoor review.

I've stayed away from a few similar situations due to glassdoor reviews.

Re: Developer on Call

#130
Here's my take, after working for an agency that tried to introduce "on-call hours".

I've mentioned this a few times on here, but I know a lawyer, and he's friendly enough to take a look over any contracts I sign at work and to let me know what to look out for, what is enforceable, etc. He does it for me for free, but I know he does it for others too (his specialty is contracts) for a lot cheaper than I assumed a solid lawyer would cost.

Anyway, my employer brought us in to a Monday morning meeting one day and told us that due to signing a new contact with a client, we'd all be doing on-call support, with a rota for who would be on call that day. I had Friday's, and was told that every Friday I would need to be available from 6pm-6pm. On top of this, we were told we'd be paid something stupid like £10. Not an hour, just £10 for being on-call, and an extra £5 should an alarm go off.

I mentioned to the Head of Tech privately that this wasn't in our contacts, and that I don't want to work on-call. Later on that day, we were all told that we'd have new contacts available to be signed later on that week, so I sent a text to my friend and asked his thoughts.

The long and short of it was that I could refuse to sign a new contract if I wasn't happy with it, and that if a deal couldn't be reached with work, I could be free to leave with no repercussions. I said this to my boss, and in the end I was told that I didn't have to do on-call work. I had mentioned this to a few others at work, and about half of the dev team chose not to work on-call. Those that did didn't even try to push for more money, and they took the extra days that others didn't work. One guy worked Friday to Monday on-call for two years, for around £30 a week, and some Amazon vouchers as payment.

Nowadays, I actively turn down jobs with on-call hours, and I won't take a job with on-call hours unless it was for my own company or my own product. I don't give a fuck if spending more time outside of work with the product I built will make it a better product, or if it'll force me to write better code. With that being said, in my experience there are plenty of developers out there who will happily work any extra hours requested, even if the money is poor, because it puts them in the good books of their managers.

At my last place, we needed to support a product outside of office hours, and we found that there are numerous consultancies/companies outside of our time zone that specialise in this exact thing. We ended up working with a developer in San Francisco that handled overnight support for us. Even with minimal experience of the product, we never had downtime they couldn't fix.

Post reply on HN