Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#121

Post by kristofferR » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 8:14 PM UTC

patd wrote: post #110

kristofferR wrote: post #97

I'm a Norwegian who went to a Swedish music festival last summer. I couldn't pay for a lot of things there, since the booths only accepted Swish (the only relevant Swedish mobile payment solution, it's a de facto monopoly). I couldn't sign up and use Swish on my phone, since it only accepts Swedish bank accounts. I couldn't borrow money from my Swedish friends either, since they didn't have cash (and it mostly wasn't…

Aren't you asking a bit too much info for a simple SEPA transfer ? The IBAN should be all you really need, the rest are nice to have.

I've heard that too, but my bank (Sbanken, normally a good user friendly bank) wouldn't let the payment go through without all the fields filled out.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#122

Post by jellicle » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 8:15 PM UTC

pishpash wrote: post #64

api wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Self sufficiency is a continuum, not a boolean. Cash decentralizes permission for economic transactions.

I'm genuinely curious, what would be the rationale or incentive for a private payment processor (in a competitive payments market) to reject a legitimate transaction? The only reason I can think of would be false positive on fraud detection or system error or the such, all problems with the medium, not with centralization/permissions.

The payment processor makes pennies from your business. If doing business with you ever costs them more than pennies - if it costs them dollars, or hundreds of dollars, or thousands of dollars, or more - they're going to drop you.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/9/18079880/paypal-proud-boy...

Sorry, legitimate transactions! We reject you!

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#123

Post by eksemplar » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 8:15 PM UTC

kristofferR wrote: post #97

I'm a Norwegian who went to a Swedish music festival last summer. I couldn't pay for a lot of things there, since the booths only accepted Swish (the only relevant Swedish mobile payment solution, it's a de facto monopoly). I couldn't sign up and use Swish on my phone, since it only accepts Swedish bank accounts. I couldn't borrow money from my Swedish friends either, since they didn't have cash (and it mostly wasn't…

That’s festival payment done wrong, but cashless can be really great at festivals.

In Denmark we have a festival called Skanderborg festival, and they build both your ticket and your cashless payment into the festival bracelet.

You use the bracelet to pay everywhere, and you can add money to it a range of payment methods, from using a visa or similar in their app, to visiting one of the cash places where you can use an atm and then add funds to your bracelet.

It’s easily the best payment experience I’ve ever had at a festival.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#124

Post by mamon » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 8:15 PM UTC

mrb wrote: post #104

CPLX wrote: post #14

A society without cash is a society in which every person has no choice but to get the permission of someone they don’t know and will never meet each and every time they seek to obtain food, water, shelter, or transportation, and that permission can be revoked instantly, silently, and invisibly at any time.

« that permission can be revoked instantly, silently, and invisibly at any time » Yes, "permission" is the right vocabulary to use in this instance. In fact, the opposite, being "permissionless", is exactly one of the main selling points of cryptocurrencies: no authority can prevent a user from sending or receiving bitcoins, or ether, etc. This is why cryptocurrencies should be seen as competing with cash, and not wi…

>> main selling points of cryptocurrencies: no authority can prevent a user from sending or receiving bitcoins, or ether, etc.

Until you realize that >90% of Bitcoin hashing power is controlled by a handful of Chinese guys, and those guys are probably controlled (or can be easily coerced into cooperation) by Chinese totalitarian government.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#125

Post by masklinn » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 8:15 PM UTC

StavrosK wrote: post #114

patd wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't you asking a bit too much info for a simple SEPA transfer ? The IBAN should be all you really need, the rest are nice to have.

True, but that doesn't weaken his point.

It removes the entire second paragraph. It takes about 5mn to do a SEPA bank transfer: open banking client, open transfers, create new transfer, enter destination IBAN, enter amount, optionally set a data & some text, confirm.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#126

Post by Casseres » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 8:15 PM UTC

StavrosK wrote: post #115

tridentlead wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless big brother cuts off your connection to the wider web Edit spelling

You don't necessarily need a connection. It can work just as well with a QR code signature that the recipient uses later to broadcast the transaction.

Without the network, another recipient wouldn't know about that transaction and thus be susceptible to a double-spend, right?

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#127

Post by yongjik » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 8:16 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #86

yongjik wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You already live in a society where the food, water, and shelter you freely purchase has to be certified and authorized by faceless people you've never met and will never meet. Even your labor you are willing to give has to be certified at some level. That's why you don't have to worry about salmonella in your chicken sandwich or a steel beam falling onto your head at work. You're welcome.

> That's why you don't have to worry about salmonella in your chicken sandwich or a steel beam falling onto your head at work. You have to worry about both of those things. Why? Because instead of forcing the placement of every steel beam and the sale of every chicken sandwich to pass through the hands of an intermediary who both profits from and regulates the action, we just decided to regularly inspect places where…

"If I take your argument and extrapolate until it sounds absurd, then it sounds absurd, therefore your original argument is invalid."

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#128

Post by dingaling » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 8:16 PM UTC

kristofferR wrote: post #97

I'm a Norwegian who went to a Swedish music festival last summer. I couldn't pay for a lot of things there, since the booths only accepted Swish (the only relevant Swedish mobile payment solution, it's a de facto monopoly). I couldn't sign up and use Swish on my phone, since it only accepts Swedish bank accounts. I couldn't borrow money from my Swedish friends either, since they didn't have cash (and it mostly wasn't…

> Utopia my ass

It actually IS a Utopia, by Thomas More's original definition; a society that appears idyllic and perfectly organised on the surface, but is only maintained in that state by everyone doing what they're supposed to do. And that is achieved by enforcing total compliance through surveillance and coercion.

The point of the book is that the reader really wouldn't want to live in Utopia once he understands the misery it requires.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#129

Post by Numberwang » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 8:16 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #77

jamesblonde wrote: post #17

As a resident of Sweden, i can only say that this is the future for all western countries. Life is just better without cash. We don't pay the mental tax of always ensuring i have dollar bills on me to tip left, right, and center. Your phone is enough to get you through the day. The govt is still run by the people for the people here, so most people aren't worried about totalitarianism. Most beggars now have signs wit…

> We don't pay the mental tax of always ensuring i have dollar bills on me to tip left, right, and center. Is this something you were doing before? If not, why did you bring it up? Who do you imagine is doing this?

As a Swede living abroad it felt like travelling back in time 20 years when I moved. Suddenly my pockets were filled with metal again and notes that had to somewhat match up to what I was spending. I assume OP feel the same way every time he goes abroad.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#130

Post by jlokier » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 8:21 PM UTC

nbsd4life wrote: post #52

jamesblonde wrote: post #17

As a resident of Sweden, i can only say that this is the future for all western countries. Life is just better without cash. We don't pay the mental tax of always ensuring i have dollar bills on me to tip left, right, and center. Your phone is enough to get you through the day. The govt is still run by the people for the people here, so most people aren't worried about totalitarianism. Most beggars now have signs wit…

If you've ever been on the bad side of banks you'll dread this a lot. I merely had my credit card stolen but getting a replacement was surprisingly time-consuming and I'm glad I could still eat and travel until then.

If you get on the bad side of the banks, it's much worse. You can't get a bank account at all, or you can't keep the accounts you have.

If you had credit (overdraft or credit card), it is taken away exactly at the moment you need to use it and you're put into unauthorised debt. If that happens you may not get credit from anywhere else. Where I live, even high-interest payday loans will likely be declined at that point.

If you run out of funds, you're probably going to incur compound charges as bills continue to try to be drawn.

In a cashless world run through bank accounts, at that point your friends can't lend you a little something to help with immediate necessities like food. Anything they send is instantly absorbed by charges and/or cancelling unauthorised debt (which was authorised when you incurred it - remember you're on the bad side of banks and they took away existing credit arrangements).

So you can't buy that food, and your friends can't even give/lend you a little money to help - you'll need friends who will directly feed you.

If it lasts for long, you can't rent somewhere to live, and you can't get paid for decent work. (These two things are already bad - where I live a poor credit rating means rental agencies will decline a tenancy or ask for 6 or 12 months rent (and 1-2 months deposit), and people who can't get bank accounts can't take jobs that only pay wages to an account. The two are linked and it's tough to get out of.)

Don't get on the bad side of banks in a cashless, banks-only society.