Oceans 'soaking up more heat than estimated' • Hacker News Board

Re: Oceans 'soaking up more heat than estimated'

#121

Post by verelo » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 1:12 PM UTC

ForHackernews wrote: post #98

ekzy wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could say that the effort is vain, but saying that it "has the opposite effect" is quite a strong statement. I am interested to hear how individual efforts of going vegetarian/vegan are contributing to global warming. And could you expand on "putting effort into pushing for the drastic changes"?

There are plenty of "be the change" types who don't vote, and who have disengaged from the political process.

Like i see personal level actions as a leader to future large scale group actions. Similar to electric cars, they’re inaccessible by cost to most, but the high cost purchaser is their path to mass adoption.

Also, if a wealthy person cannot justify extra insulation to prevent energy waste, i sure don’t expect a poorer person to ever take the idea seeiously.

Re: Oceans 'soaking up more heat than estimated'

#122

Post by verelo » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 1:14 PM UTC

candiodari wrote: post #118

DennisP wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do that stuff but it's not going to save the world. To save the world we need: a substantial price on carbon, a faster path to developing advanced nuclear power (in addition to continuing renewables deployment), a major rollout of lab-grown meat as soon as it's affordable with decent quality, negative emissions methods both technological (direct air capture) and biological (kelp, reforesting), and maybe some kind o…

> To save the world we need: a substantial price on carbon, No we don't. Global warming is a self-reinforcing effect. So there's no point to slowing down emissions. No point at all. Even if you get it to zero, the resulting concentrations will still accelerate into the right. Even if you get it negative at the same rate we're producing it today (which would eliminate all human co2 contributions EVER in ~60 years) wou…

I love the idea of it being a self regulating cost, but frankly this whole conversation is about the fact we as humans are not reacting. So I’m all for throwing a price on it to break the cycle of procrastination!

Taxes can always be repealed, but I’d like to see us start giving a shit before we assume this won’t work, because whatever we are doing now doesn’t work!

Re: Oceans 'soaking up more heat than estimated'

#123

Post by verelo » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 1:16 PM UTC

So i assume we have all had homework at one point in time? Does this not just feel like homework for the planet, and we are Ll procrastinating because we think we can cram it out at the last minute? How do we shock ourselves into action? This is the question i keep asking myself.

Re: Oceans 'soaking up more heat than estimated'

#124

Post by your-nanny » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 1:19 PM UTC

ekzy wrote: post #90

hueving wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, people making personal efforts like that has the opposite effect. It makes them think they are doing something that matters so they don't put any effort into pushing for the drastic changes required to fix the problem. People making individual efforts like that is about as useful as praying when it comes to preventing tragedy of the commons scenarios.

You could say that the effort is vain, but saying that it "has the opposite effect" is quite a strong statement. I am interested to hear how individual efforts of going vegetarian/vegan are contributing to global warming. And could you expand on "putting effort into pushing for the drastic changes"?

Sometimes when people go to the gym, they give themselves a pay on the back and leave to iver eat their next meal. If, making small sacrifices encourages more extravagant indulgences, then yeah, maybe it could.

However, I think that the second order effects need to be considered. As I mentioned in another post, sometimes you doing a thing makes it easier for others to do a thing, until a critical mass brings about a major change in state. For example, buying a fuel efficient vehicle encourages manufacturers to produce them. Eating and asking for vegetarian options encourages them to be offered, making it easier to become a vegetarian without being a stick in the mud. It can also change norms. Sometimes people won't do a thing because they don't want to go against norms. Like a guy out with his buddies ordering a burger instead of the salad he actually might prefer.

Re: Oceans 'soaking up more heat than estimated'

#125

Post by jahaja » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 1:20 PM UTC

This is also a crisis of critical thought. There's an utter lack and/or willingness to imagine any other reality than the current market economy. This goes even to the length of advocating some sort of scorched earth policies to decrease the earth's population since in their mind, the only human is the market-human and is as such inherently a terrible polluter.

This is fundamentalism.

Re: Oceans 'soaking up more heat than estimated'

#126

Post by your-nanny » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 1:22 PM UTC

hueving wrote: post #73

Vinnl wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think all of these things are set in motion by people making efforts like going vegetarian.

No, people making personal efforts like that has the opposite effect. It makes them think they are doing something that matters so they don't put any effort into pushing for the drastic changes required to fix the problem. People making individual efforts like that is about as useful as praying when it comes to preventing tragedy of the commons scenarios.

funny you should say that because religious institutions have, historically, had a major role in preventing tragedies of commons.

Re: Oceans 'soaking up more heat than estimated'

#127

Post by learnstats2 » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 1:24 PM UTC

lucidguppy wrote: post #3

1) Go watch the movie cowspiracy on netflix. Go vegan. 2) Get an energy audit and see if your home needs more insulation. If a solar panel installation will pay for itself in a reasonable time where you live (rebates - SRECs - etc) consider getting one. 3) If you live in a warmer climate with safe biking paths - get an electric bike to go to work. 4) The next car you get should be electric or plugin hybrid. Even if i…

Many people here will have a much bigger effect by considering how to tackle environmental concerns in their workplace.

Get into decision-making positions and advocate for energy saving on a corporate scale.

Re: Oceans 'soaking up more heat than estimated'

#128

Post by viggity » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 1:24 PM UTC

The oceans have a mass 1000 times that of the atmosphere. So if they were predicting 2C increase in the heat of the atmosphere wouldn't that be .002 deg Celsius in the ocean? Can you even measure that give the vastness of the ocean?

Re: Oceans 'soaking up more heat than estimated'

#129

Post by CuriouslyC » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 1:26 PM UTC

nhangen wrote: post #21

fredley wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you don't want to go vegan, it's easy to eat less meat (and probably good for your health if you have a Western diet). My partner is vegetarian, I eat meat occasionally (and when I do I eat good meat, ethically and sustainably farmed). Reducing meat consumption is by far the easiest way to reduce your carbon footprint.

Hate to break it to you, but there is no such thing as ethically farmed meat. If it’s killed for your plate, it’s still bad karma.

Death isn't the problem, everything dies. The problem is needless suffering.

Eating meat can actually be a moral act. If the animal you eat lead a better life than it otherwise would have because of the care you provided in raising it, it's a net good. To put this in perspective, imagine you were impoverished and living a miserable existence and someone offered to let you live in comfort and luxury, and promised to take care of your offspring, but in exchange you had to agree to euthanasia at age 30. That might not be attractive to you from a first world perspective, but a lot of people would take that in a heartbeat.

Re: Oceans 'soaking up more heat than estimated'

#130

Post by rebuilder » Thu, Nov 01, 2018, 1:28 PM UTC

lucidguppy wrote: post #3

1) Go watch the movie cowspiracy on netflix. Go vegan. 2) Get an energy audit and see if your home needs more insulation. If a solar panel installation will pay for itself in a reasonable time where you live (rebates - SRECs - etc) consider getting one. 3) If you live in a warmer climate with safe biking paths - get an electric bike to go to work. 4) The next car you get should be electric or plugin hybrid. Even if i…

Those are all good, but if instead of asking "how can I reduce my carbon footprint" you ask "what should my carbon footprint be", I think you'll find the answer a bit discouraging. Basically, where I live, just my share of the cost of maintaining basic infrastructure puts me above the limits implied by the Paris accord, nevermind actually moving from place to place, having heating or eating things.

Maybe that's why you don't see too much focus on telling people what their personal goals should be - the situation encourages defeatism if you actually try to find a personal solution to the problem.

What we need is a wartime economy, geared towards surviving climate change. In my view, that could actually be very good for us - western societies haven't had a concrete goal to unify their citizens for as long as I've been around, at least. And this time, the goal wouldn't revolve around killing people!

Now, how do we get started?