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Sales mistakes that software engineers make

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Re: Sales mistakes that software engineers make

#121

Post by osrec »

bambax wrote: post #24

> Sales Mistake #1 - Building Before you Start Selling (...) If you’re wrong, you’ll save time and money by not building something people don’t want. I fell into this trap often, so I know it well. The reason why we don't ask first is, we want to build something . Anything. If we're "wrong", we won't "save" time and money, we will delay the moment we start making, maybe indefinitely. What if we never find something p…

Maybe we can tweak the advice to the following: if you need to build, build a little and get it validated by a potential customer before building more.

Re: Sales mistakes that software engineers make

#122

Post by mlthoughts2018 »

gowld wrote: post #108
mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #35

The first point is often totally wrong. I worked in a place where the sales team sold the product hard before much of it was built and before it was reliable. It turned out to be way harder to build what customers actually wanted than anyone knew ahead of time. Nobody could foresee it. The only way we could have known we were egregiously over-promising in the sales pitches was to just actually start building it first…

The point isn't to finish selling before you build, the point is to start selling -- do market research -- before you build. You use the term "investment" -- do you invest in stock market / bitcoin / real estate by buying whatever looks cool, and chalking up your losses to the learning process, or do you research your choices and look for ROI opportunities??

I think your comment about investing in other assests only further agrees with my point. Selling before you build is like investing in an asset without due diligence.

Re: Sales mistakes that software engineers make

#123

Post by da_chicken »

gowld wrote: post #108
mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #35

The first point is often totally wrong. I worked in a place where the sales team sold the product hard before much of it was built and before it was reliable. It turned out to be way harder to build what customers actually wanted than anyone knew ahead of time. Nobody could foresee it. The only way we could have known we were egregiously over-promising in the sales pitches was to just actually start building it first…

The point isn't to finish selling before you build, the point is to start selling -- do market research -- before you build. You use the term "investment" -- do you invest in stock market / bitcoin / real estate by buying whatever looks cool, and chalking up your losses to the learning process, or do you research your choices and look for ROI opportunities??

I agree that your interpretation is right, but "start selling" is an extremely ambiguous phrase here. After all, "a sale" is most often understood to be a finalized sale; "to sell" is most often understood to be completed transaction.

Yes, the idea here is, "understand who you're marketing to and what they're looking for before you start building," and the phrasing used is what it is because that's catchier, but it's still not particularly concrete phrasing.

Re: Sales mistakes that software engineers make

#124

Post by ggregoire »

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #35

The first point is often totally wrong. I worked in a place where the sales team sold the product hard before much of it was built and before it was reliable. It turned out to be way harder to build what customers actually wanted than anyone knew ahead of time. Nobody could foresee it. The only way we could have known we were egregiously over-promising in the sales pitches was to just actually start building it first…

I don't think the article is about companies building a new product before selling it. All companies do that and it works. I guess the article is more about engineers (usually one or two guys) building a product on their own (full-time or on the side of their job) before talking to any potential customer. Basically spending x months building a product then sending the first emails to companies that could be a good fit, and in most cases, don't find anyone interested in.

Yes it sounds like a stupid thing to do (and I did the same mistake). I think that's the difference between an engineer and an entrepreneur: one wants to build an app, the other one a business. Obviously you can be both, but I guess lot of people will try and eventually find out that they are more engineers than entrepreneurs.

Re: Sales mistakes that software engineers make

#125

Post by JamesBarney »

fuball63 wrote: post #56

I fall into the "Build before talking to customers" trap constantly. Even though I know it's "wrong", it is hard to escape it because of the simple problem of not knowing who to talk to. The article suggests doing a search for potential companies, finding contacts on linkedin, and sending out some emails. But what about experimental technologies or developer tools? I wouldn't expect a lot of success with a slow movin…

> I wouldn't expect a lot of success with a slow moving Fortune 1000 company in my city, and there's no way to search "startups using x" for a generic technology, like serverless or NoSQL.

Search for job ads on angelist etc.. if a company is looking for a dev with NoSQL experience they probably are using NoSQL.

Re: Sales mistakes that software engineers make

#126

Post by JumpCrisscross »

nobody271 wrote: post #112
bambax wrote: post #24

> Sales Mistake #1 - Building Before you Start Selling (...) If you’re wrong, you’ll save time and money by not building something people don’t want. I fell into this trap often, so I know it well. The reason why we don't ask first is, we want to build something . Anything. If we're "wrong", we won't "save" time and money, we will delay the moment we start making, maybe indefinitely. What if we never find something p…

Well how is my audience supposed to know what I have to offer until they have it in front of them? Before that it's just me telling them an idea. Even after it's done I would not expect users to start using it on their own. Then you have to play a whole different game of getting people to use it.

> how is my audience supposed to know what I have to offer until they have it in front of them?

This is, in an essence, sales. One need not be dishonest. Talking about upcoming products is fine. Collecting early sign-ups and for manufactured products, taking deposits, is ethical.

Re: Sales mistakes that software engineers make

#127

Post by quest88 »

nobody271 wrote: post #112
bambax wrote: post #24

> Sales Mistake #1 - Building Before you Start Selling (...) If you’re wrong, you’ll save time and money by not building something people don’t want. I fell into this trap often, so I know it well. The reason why we don't ask first is, we want to build something . Anything. If we're "wrong", we won't "save" time and money, we will delay the moment we start making, maybe indefinitely. What if we never find something p…

Well how is my audience supposed to know what I have to offer until they have it in front of them? Before that it's just me telling them an idea. Even after it's done I would not expect users to start using it on their own. Then you have to play a whole different game of getting people to use it.

As one of the points in the article: listen, don't talk!

Listen to problems people have now before you build so you know what to build. Then you can easily explain your product in terms of their problems.

Re: Sales mistakes that software engineers make

#128

Post by ericabiz »

edanm wrote: post #114

I sometimes don't understand why technical people seem resistant to "lean startup" methodologies. It's just the scientific method, applied to build a product! You build hypotheses, then try to prove them, and in the course of this, usually learn more information about the world. That simple. You think you have a product which is useful to someone? Prove it! Talk to people, ask them, build simple prototypes of the cor…

I can shed a bit of light into this as a Myers-Briggs INTJ (so common in Silicon Valley it's called the "programmer type.")

I'd definitely rather be behind a computer than out talking to people, especially people I don't know.

And I fear rejection--just being brutally honest. (Most people wouldn't admit that this is a core reason they don't like sales.)

I've gotten a ton better since I've run retail stores for the last 3+ years, and that's pushed me out of my comfort zone so frequently that I'm pretty decent at small talk now. (INTJs tend to hate small talk, and sales can be a lot of small talk!)

I doubt I'll ever get to the point where sales is fun for me like it would be for some of the extrovert types. Still, sales is worth doing as a boundary-pushing exercise and a getting-comfortable-with-rejection exercise.

Re: Sales mistakes that software engineers make

#129

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

jeremyjh wrote: post #57
bambax wrote: post #24

> Sales Mistake #1 - Building Before you Start Selling (...) If you’re wrong, you’ll save time and money by not building something people don’t want. I fell into this trap often, so I know it well. The reason why we don't ask first is, we want to build something . Anything. If we're "wrong", we won't "save" time and money, we will delay the moment we start making, maybe indefinitely. What if we never find something p…

This is all very true and relevant, yet still its also true that we see lots of stories from founders regretting that they never established market fit before sinking years into development. This is probably the pattern for 90% of indie game developers, but it crops up in other contexts as well. Once they finally know they are at the end of that road to nowhere, they do have regrets, and they have had other ideas in…

Is it possible to do indie game dev without building something and throwing it out there?

Small games seem like a market where it's nearly impossible to know what's going to sell ahead of time, because buyers don't know what they want until they see it. Or until a lot of people are telling them it's the Next New Thing.

It's relatively easy to research a market where you're offering a practical solution to a real problem. But entertainment markets - including direct sales of games, music, art, "influencers", and so on - are as much about trend, fashion, and some element of randomness, as about the core features of the product.

Big Game Devs and Entertainment Companies know this, which is why they repeat the same hits over and over, and spend a fortune on direct advertising and influence.

They still get it wrong sometimes, but slightly less often than solo devs.

Re: Sales mistakes that software engineers make

#130

Post by fuball63 »

edanm wrote: post #111
fuball63 wrote: post #56

I fall into the "Build before talking to customers" trap constantly. Even though I know it's "wrong", it is hard to escape it because of the simple problem of not knowing who to talk to. The article suggests doing a search for potential companies, finding contacts on linkedin, and sending out some emails. But what about experimental technologies or developer tools? I wouldn't expect a lot of success with a slow movin…

> I fall into the "Build before talking to customers" trap constantly. Even though I know it's "wrong", it is hard to escape it because of the simple problem of not knowing who to talk to. Then you have a different problem - you don't have a way to reach target customers. Even if you build your product, how are you going to build a sales pipeline? Your customers won't hear about your product by themselves - you have…

Yes, and this is the part I can't seem to figure out. I think it's more of a personality/networking issue.

Right now I have an MVP of a function as a service platform; a general purpose development tool. I'm thinking meetups are the best bet, just to meet people, ask questions, and listen to pain points. But that alone is a skill set that needs to be cultivated; asking the right questions, not coming off as pushy, being self confident, and finding the right events.

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