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United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

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Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#121

Post by foton1981 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #84
otterley wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Purchasing a good or service with multiple components is not, in and of itself, a representation to the seller of intent to use all the components. Do you have a legal citation for this? I'm unaware of any law that supports this assertion. In any event, the representation in question is "I want to fly from city A to city B." It's pretty reasonable for an airline to conclude that when a passenger makes this request,…

> Do you have a legal citation for this? As far as I am aware, no one has actually attempted to make a fraud claim on the grounds that mere purchase (and/or the statement of intent to purchase) a composite good or service was a representation by the buyer to the seller of intent to use every portion of the good or service so sold and had the case survive to a published decision on that question. But, you know, if you…

Damn. If this becomes legal precedent will I be forced to read every page of books I buy?

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#122

Post by sk5t »

otterley wrote: post #98
dragonwriter wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're trying to find a loophole No, I'm not. I'm trying to find an actual false representation, and seeing only a false inference of intent to use every leg of travel from a representation of intent to purchase a ticket; testing this as fraud is something which you seem to admit would see every purchase of an aggregate good or service (the example you specifically addressed elsewhere in the thread being fast food…

I'm going to say this one last time. The false representation is "I intend to fly to city B." That's it. Nothing else. It's not "I intend to use all components of a series of segments that would get me to city B" as you suggest. You're making the analysis more complicated than it is, and that's why you would fail to persuade a court.

The representation is "I would like to purchase an option to travel towards this destination."

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#123

Post by dragonwriter »

lordlimecat wrote: post #109
dragonwriter wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you have a legal citation for this? As far as I am aware, no one has actually attempted to make a fraud claim on the grounds that mere purchase (and/or the statement of intent to purchase) a composite good or service was a representation by the buyer to the seller of intent to use every portion of the good or service so sold and had the case survive to a published decision on that question. But, you know, if you…

To purchase the ticket you agree to the contract of carriage, which explicitly disallows hidden-city ticketing in section 6, subsection J, paragraph 1. See here: https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/contract-of-carriage.ht... So when you agree to use the ticket to travel all the way to the final destination, I think that qualifies as a "representation... of intent to use every portion of the good".

I addressed that (assuming that the contract likely covered this) in my first post in this thread: “Even if the contract of carriage has language to that effect, which might give you a breach of contract claim, I don't think you’ll find much support for the use of language in a contract of adhesion as a representation by the non-drafting party for fraud claim.”

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#124

Post by bfdm »

otterley wrote: post #93
Someone1234 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you have a legal citation for this? I'm unaware of any law that supports this assertion. One could argue the same about every post you've made on this topic thus far. You're arguing that simply the act of buying something is a representation, which can then result in misrespections ala fraud, but you've provided no legal citations and the one citation you have provided was about contractual agreements which aren…

The reason I'm not citing anything is because there's nothing to cite. The (mis)representation in this case is crystal clear : "I want to fly to city B."

I don't want to fly anywhere. I want to buy a plane ticket with my name on it good for travel to B if I decide I want to do that later.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#125

Post by dragonwriter »

lordlimecat wrote: post #110
johnm1019 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree it's crystal clear. How does buying something indicate your intent, wants, or wishes? If I buy a can of spray-paint, the store has no idea if I am using it to paint my child's bicycle, tag graffiti, use it as a weapon and hit someone on the head, or as part of a wonderful "Rube Goldberg" device which at the end an implement hits the sprayhead which sprays through a bright white light as part of…

>How does buying something indicate your intent, wants, or wishes? Because when you buy a united ticket you agree to a contract of carriage that specifically says you will use the ticket in its entirety.

That's why there's a decent case for a breach of contract claim (subject to all the concerns that usually apply with contracts of adhesion.)

But the language of a contract of adhesion doesn't seem likely to be taken as a representation by the non-drafting party in a fraud case.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#126

Post by InclinedPlane »

cft wrote: post #113
InclinedPlane wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all, eating is not part of the contract, only receipt. If you buy a meal at McDonald's and throw all of it in the trash, that's not fraud. It's yours to do with how you please.

What if I repeatedly buy non-stop tickets and don't show up? I have done it a lot. According to you, I breached my promise to fly to the final destination?

Where have I said that?

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#127

Post by seaweedlegs »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #21

I doubt United will prevail in there efforts. It's "Contract of Carriage"[1] rule 6, sub-section J is where they put in all the verbiage about how they think they should be able to penalize you for avoiding their fare structures. It is pretty bogus and I'd love to see it litigated, to do that you really would have to do this stuff enough to get them to take action against you citing that rule, and then (now that you…

Normally, I might agree with you, but an ever increasing number of judges seem predisposed to rule in favor of corporations.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#128

Post by CaptainZapp »

otterley wrote: post #119
cft wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that this contract is not a law: i would be surprised if it stood in court. According to it, if I feel sick and terminate my flight at the stopover, of if I learn of a business emergency and I have to go back, I am still in breach of this ridiculous contract? And what makes it most ridiculous is this: "Any practice that United believes, in its sole discretion , is exploitative, abusive or that manipulates/bypass…

Impossibility is a defense to a breach of contract. And let’s not be silly; United’s not going to go after you for unintentional breach due to illness. Come on, use some common sense.

Are you arguing that buying a return ticket even though you need a (much more expensive) one way ticket and then not using the return segment is fraud?

Apart from proving that you intentionally bought a return flight best of luck defining this as fraud in front of a judge.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#129

Post by trelliscoded »

I never understood how they found out if a passenger was skipping one leg of a flight. If it's the same plane, just get off, and if it's not the same plane, just check in to the next flight and don't board. Is someone counting heads or something while I'm not looking?
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