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The Awful German Language (1880)

cs.utah.edu

121–130 of 317 posts

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#121
post #73

English grammar is far simpler than German grammar. Eliminating noun genders, declensions, and cases (as English does) is a great simplification over German. I've never understood the need for noun genders and I scratch my head at a society that makes its members memorize such useless information. That said, German pronunciation is more regular than English pronunciation. Every letter combination is in most cases pro…

> a society that makes its members memorize such useless information

That is a really strange angle on the subject of native language. If there's any language my society has made me learn, it's the one I'm writing now, my second (and absolutely indispensable) one. The gendering of nouns (in my national case, two genders) and sundry other weird historical linguistic baggage is just the way things are and ever were.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#122
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese is interesting because the spoken form has no gender but the written form does (he/she/it are written 他/她/它 but all pronounced “tā”)

Chinese of course has numerous dialects outside Mandarin. Do any dialects change tones when using that “tā” phoneme for a "he" or a "she" or an "it"?

I'm living in a Cantonese speaking area (Hong Kong) and my Mandarin teacher (from Taiwan) claims that the multiple written forms of the third-person singular pronoun were introduced a generation or two ago in order to be able to more faithfully translate foreign works into Chinese. She says that many people, particularly the older generation, always use the older character, the one that now means "he".

As far as dialects that might have different tones to distinguish he/she/it, it's possible. It's also possible for a dialect of Chinese to have wildly different pronunciation of those characters, maybe something like "ta" , "ki", "zu".

Chinese dialects differ by more than most foreigners expect. It goes far beyond "Texan arguing with a Brooklyn cabbie" or "Texan arguing with an Aussie" level of dialectal differences. Cantonese and Mandarin are less similar than Italian and Portuguese. Cantonese uses the same two characters for rooster as Mandarin uses (公雞 "gong ji"), but reverses the order (雞公 "gai kung"). "gong" and "kung" sound pretty similar, but "ji" and "gai" are totally different. (On a side note, the Thai word for chicken is also "gai".) Also, I need to be careful about mixing up the numbers between Cantonese and Mandarin... the Mandarin word for one differs only in tone from Cantonese word for two, and my Cantonese tones are terrible. (1 2 3 4 5 is "yi er san si wu" vs. "yat yi san sei ng".) I have a friend who (I have no idea why he was so crazily naive) is a native Cantonese speaker and thought he could just go to Shanghai and speak Cantonese with a Mandarin accent and be understood. He ended up speaking English his whole time there because Cantonese just sounded like gibberish to the Shanghainese and Mandarin speakers.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#123
I've always loved this essay. It's a great example of good-natural ribbing that manages to make humor out of the eccentricities of something (a language, in this case) while making it clear that the people who like that thing are fine people. Mark Twain doesn't really hate the German language nor think anything but the best of Germans --- and it comes across in the essay. I'm not sure whether we can still write essays like this today.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#124
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know about your example, but Germans tend to pack more information into a sentence, particularly in the written form (as Mark Twain rightfully noticed). Actually, I find English somewhat clumsy to write technical documentation in. Using short sentences, I frequently end up in restating things and having to find alternative words and idioms to avoid repetition. Moreover, using relative clause in English isn't qu…

What I like about English is that it naturally supports gender neutrality. For example: "the user should upload their photo, and then they should press enter", instead of "the user should upload his/her photo and then he/she should press enter".

This is just a very recent conditioning. Doesn't (yet?) work for all of us. I cringe whenever I encounter this strange use of plural they to designate a single individual. In fact, I consider the old convention of 'he' in certain context meaning 'he or she' far less a rape of linguistic integrity.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#125
post #73

English grammar is far simpler than German grammar. Eliminating noun genders, declensions, and cases (as English does) is a great simplification over German. I've never understood the need for noun genders and I scratch my head at a society that makes its members memorize such useless information. That said, German pronunciation is more regular than English pronunciation. Every letter combination is in most cases pro…

> I've never understood the need for noun genders

What a peculiar comment. It's like saying, what's the use of termites? No, seriously, why _do_ we have termites? Do we really need termites?

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#126
post #73

English grammar is far simpler than German grammar. Eliminating noun genders, declensions, and cases (as English does) is a great simplification over German. I've never understood the need for noun genders and I scratch my head at a society that makes its members memorize such useless information. That said, German pronunciation is more regular than English pronunciation. Every letter combination is in most cases pro…

> I've never understood the need for noun genders What a peculiar comment. It's like saying, what's the use of termites? No, seriously, why _do_ we have termites? Do we really need termites?

Recycling tree matter in the woods.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#127
post #34

German is an amazing, beautiful language. With not much of the vocabulary borrowed from other languages, words actually make sense. From that perspective, German can be seen as the modern equivalent of Latin, and if I were to choose only one language to remain on the entire planet, it would be German (sorry English, Chinese and Spanish). Its sounds are easier for non-native speakers to pronounce - especially compared…

[deleted]

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#128
post #73

English grammar is far simpler than German grammar. Eliminating noun genders, declensions, and cases (as English does) is a great simplification over German. I've never understood the need for noun genders and I scratch my head at a society that makes its members memorize such useless information. That said, German pronunciation is more regular than English pronunciation. Every letter combination is in most cases pro…

> I've never understood the need for noun genders What a peculiar comment. It's like saying, what's the use of termites? No, seriously, why _do_ we have termites? Do we really need termites?

If someone is creating a new language now, that is a concept that would definitely not be included.

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#129
post #43
post #34

German is an amazing, beautiful language. With not much of the vocabulary borrowed from other languages, words actually make sense. From that perspective, German can be seen as the modern equivalent of Latin, and if I were to choose only one language to remain on the entire planet, it would be German (sorry English, Chinese and Spanish). Its sounds are easier for non-native speakers to pronounce - especially compared…

Despite appearance, German is very illogical language full of idioms and exceptions one has to master. Also, even natives usually don't master the full extent of language and the overbearing nature of language with its need for precise use of words/formulations specific to a given situation often leads to strong reliance on syntax/appearance of complexity. You can see it in typical German philosophy, where the langua…

Fascinating. If you were to pick an optimal global language - which would it be?

Re: The Awful German Language (1880)

#130
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those aren't the awful parts though, really. I would do away with the 'formal' form of addressing people (Germans have two ways of saying 'you') which serves no real purpose. I'd also get rid of gendered articles and finally simplify word endings (adjective endings can go for a start)!

Many people feel that having a formal way to address people is useful. It allows you to express very quickly how close you want to have them to you. A stranger you don't like? Formal. A stranger who seems to be your own age and from similar circumstances? Try using non-formal and see how they react. The most beautiful form of this is 'Sie Arschloch', I think. At the same time kind of polite and a rude insult.

My native language has that distinction and I have never found it useful - it's nuisance at best. I'm thankful it's something I don't have to think about when speaking in English.
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