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Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

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Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#121

Post by dmoy »

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #62
was_boring wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably, decreasing human kind's birthrate is a net positive. Even in the absence of that, being a dad, and knowing many dads, we've already made the choice to "disadvantage" ourselves -- and wish we could do it more. What stops us is the fact that we would lose our jobs which disadvantages our kids. So I say bring on mandatory leave! The vast majority will be much happier.

One important tangent. There's a very significant nuance to birthrates you're not considering when it comes to reducing birthrates. Most of everybody knows birth rates in the developed world are decreasing, compared to the developing world. But what many do not know is that this sort of pattern holds true even within developed nations themselves. For instance in the US people who earn Think about what this means. The…

It's not really surprising at all (at least anymore). See for example Hans Rosling's research.

The richer you are, the higher chance of success of your offspring, so you don't need to roll the dice as much.

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#122

Post by lovich »

zimablue wrote: post #99
lovich wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does it push you towards having kids, it just gives you the option. Giving someone choices is not, in any way, some kind of force. The proposed change simply makes me and women both have the same cost to the employer up front. As it stands currently men are slightly cheaper due to the requirements of biology, and managers keep that in mind when comparing otherwise equal employees. It does not fix the difference b…

OK so I tax everybody enough to make indian food free for everybody. Now I'm not forcing you to eat Indian food, technically. But if you hate curries you might feel a certain sense of injustice. We're not cheaper due to the requirements of biology. (screaming) You don't have to have children. Even if you DO have children, and you're female, you DONT have to take extensive time off. I've known multiple successful wome…

A women has to be there for the birth from what I understand, so they de facto have to take off time that men do not. As for your curry example, you might feel injustice but if Indian curry was required for society to continue then you'd have to just deal with it.

This undercurrent in this thread where people are outraged at having to spend a cent supporting parents just because they don't want children is mind boggling. I never plan to have children and yet I'd still support this. Do you expect there to be some sort of magical force supporting you in your old age, or making sure the economy doesn't shrink as the population declines?

From the viewpoint of a society, making sure that parents can raise the next generation is basic maintenance that we have to pay or face oblivion. I am sorry that you are appalled to have to share in that burden with the rest of us

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#123

Post by wpietri »

malvosenior wrote: post #65
patagonia wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Narrowing the wage gap is not about the family. It’s about the wage gap. It’s about women getting less pay for the same work. It’s about women. Not the family. I’m not lecturing you. And I’m not a woman.

Except it’s been proven over and over that there is no wage gap: https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy...

That is an unedited opinion piece [1] from somebody who works for an antifeminist organization [2]. If that's what you count as proof, then maybe consider you're not being objective here.

[1] https://www.cjr.org/innovations/newsrooms_boost_traffic.php and also https://www.joshsteimle.com/writing/how-being-a-forbes-contr...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Women%27s_Forum

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#124

Post by karmajunkie »

smallnamespace wrote: post #77
gumby wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One specific concern is that mandatory paternity leave may discourage men from becoming fathers... > Another is that if taking paternity leave impacts men's careers, then in many cases both parents will suffer such an impact... As the article states: how are these factors different for men than for women?

But it disproportionately affects those who choose to have children. This doesn't eliminate an imbalance, it would simply shift some of the burden around.

And that's a bad thing because...?

The he whole point is to eliminate one of the primary causes of gender inequality in the workplace. Spreading the burden of parenting is exactly the right thing to do.

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#125

Post by lovich »

zimablue wrote: post #94
lovich wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a proposed change to how to run a company, it's not someone's rant about how someone didn't call them xer and how that person is a Nazi. Your opposition to even seeing this post because it includes gender seems like more of a culture war artifact than the post itself

As I said, we generally don't post company minutae unless there's a link to tech or startups. It's not opposition to seeing the post, it's opposition to the general trend of putting gender culture war articles otherwise disconnected to hacker news on the forum because gender activists chose to make SV a battleground. It's not culture war to be bored of the culture war.

This board posts things constantly that don't have a link to tech. The only requirement is that it would be interesting to hackers. If this article got upvoted, then it's obviously interesting to the board.

This isn't a gender war article either as far as I can see

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#127

Post by lovich »

damagednoob wrote: post #108
lovich wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state already imposes interruptions in what parents see as their childs well being. Requiring vaccinations to attend school, preventing parents from including children in dangerous religious events like snake handling, stopping underage marriages even when the parent thinks it's in the child best economic interest, etc. Unless you are against state intervention in cases like these, then you are already accepting…

> Unless you are against state intervention in cases like these, then you are already accepting that the state can interfere. Okay, fair enough. I will vehemently oppose any state interruption that goes against medical recommendations . You will not believe the string of NHS nurses and caregivers who tried to ensure that we breastfed our child.

Yeah that makes sense. I dont see how giving father's the same parental leave as women is an issue there though. Companies aren't going to give extra leave to women instead of giving it to men

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#128

Post by gumby »

zimablue wrote: post #99
lovich wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does it push you towards having kids, it just gives you the option. Giving someone choices is not, in any way, some kind of force. The proposed change simply makes me and women both have the same cost to the employer up front. As it stands currently men are slightly cheaper due to the requirements of biology, and managers keep that in mind when comparing otherwise equal employees. It does not fix the difference b…

OK so I tax everybody enough to make indian food free for everybody. Now I'm not forcing you to eat Indian food, technically. But if you hate curries you might feel a certain sense of injustice. We're not cheaper due to the requirements of biology. (screaming) You don't have to have children. Even if you DO have children, and you're female, you DONT have to take extensive time off. I've known multiple successful wome…

I don't agree with the people who feel that there is some obligation to have kids, BUT:

If people have kids its in my interest that they are educated, well nourished, well brought up etc as these kids will eventually become voters, taxpayers, perhaps my doctor etc.

Yes, it's the parents' choice, but to some extent I have an interest in their implementation, specifically by making it easier to make the choices they want.

If you want to pick a "I don't want to pay for it" hill to fight for, pick something more useful like the abolition of the destructive special tax treatment for donations to "non-profits" (it just puts the government in a position to choose which qualify) or the mortgage interest deduction (which mathematically doesn't help homeowners at all but is simply a government subsidy to real estate agents and home builders).

Re: Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap

#129

Post by gumby »

gaius wrote: post #70
gumby wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that none should be disadvantaged.

Exactly. So decouple the time off from the reproduction.

Except that the amount for this special case far outweighs the amount typical for PTO.
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