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Marriage Costs in China Are Out of Control

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Re: Marriage Costs in China Are Out of Control

#121

Post by tomjen3 »

pmorici wrote: post #90
ForHackernews wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe people don't want to bring children into a world that will be worse off in many ways than the one they grew up in? That hypothesis would correspond with the observation that it's the most educated, most long-term-focused people in (currently) stable societies that are delaying or avoiding children.

"Maybe people don't want to bring children into a world that will be worse off in many ways than the one they grew up in?" Objective measurements show that the world better off than it was and still improving. [0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCm9Ng0bbEQ

For the world in general, yes.

For the US middle-class? Medical expenses and college tuition are both exploding, so they are finding it increasingly hard to make ends meet. Yes cars are safer, cellphones so much better and so on, but it just doesn't add up to enough.

Plus all it takes is one wrong move by Putin or Kimmy and all that progress goes up in a mushroom cloud.

Re: Marriage Costs in China Are Out of Control

#122

Post by rectang »

tomjen3 wrote: post #119
rectang wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These bride costs should be allowed to climb infinitely, because it will serve as an incentive for families to have girls Wow, a market correction to counteract societal undervaluation of females. If it could happen that would be profoundly constructive, but attitudes about gender are durable. It's not hard to imagine that instead of letting the price rise to incentivize an increase in supply, we could see see pric…

How would you have price fixing and rationing? At most you could have that on the legal market, but the black market would never tolerate that, and it would only drive the (unofficial) price for women even higher. Besides a great deal of the reasons the girls were aborted or killed were because in China a parent can count only on the support of their sons, not because Chinese parents don't love their daughters.

> How would you have price fixing and rationing?

For example, by enacting laws which retard women's economic and geographic mobility, so that fewer are able to leave the local market.

> not because Chinese parents don't love their daughters.

Devaluation of women as a class is entirely compatible with love for individuals.

Re: Marriage Costs in China Are Out of Control

#123

Post by tomcam »

These are house down payment prices.

My wife and I eloped and were married for a total of $270 in Las Vegas (25 years ago). It is easily one of the best decisions I’ve ever made.

I have heard lots of people complain that they spent too much time, money and psychological goodwill on their elaborate marriage events, but I have never heard someone say they regretted a simple inexpensive wedding.

Re: Marriage Costs in China Are Out of Control

#124

Post by thrower123 »

watwut wrote: post #116
thrower123 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In China, yes, very much so. Historically, when gender imbalances have gotten to the levels in the current statistics, rebellion and violent millenarian religious cults have found fertile ground, when times turned tougher. Having an excess of downtrodden single men without much to lose is not a great situation for stability anywhere.

Thank you. How did it happened? They killed female babies?

It's been a considerable time since I was doing coursework on that period, but in broad strokes I recall it went something like this:

1.) Culturally, there was a broad understanding that males remain within their birth family lineages, whereas women leave and join their husband's family.

2.) Male children were expected to provide for their parents in old age, whereas (again if I recall correctly) it was customary to offer a dowry when female children were married.

3.) As a result wealth tended to transfer from female-heavy lineages to male-heavy lineages.

4.) When new land was available, or technology or new crops could make old land more productive, this effect was manageable, but increased pressure when population butted up against technical limits of agriculture, so that additional new arable land (wealth) could not be easily made available. Particularly when infrastructure and ecological failures strained or reduced the capacity of productive land. In that more zero-sum environment, male children were correspondingly more valuable, and there were upticks in female infanticide.

There's another dynamic in play with regards to the Chinese bureaucratic governmental system, which only men could take advantage of - in the archtypical system, entry into the bureacratic class was at least nominally meritocratic, and through grueling work and education, one could become eligible to take and pass the examinations to gain the bureaucratic degrees, which conferred massive benefits, which were again expected to accrue to not only the newly-minted official, but their family groups. So there are instances of family lineages and even entire villages pooling their resources behind a favored son, investing massively in classical education in hopes of hitting the lottery that way.

Re: Marriage Costs in China Are Out of Control

#125

Post by tajen »

tomcam wrote: post #123

These are house down payment prices. My wife and I eloped and were married for a total of $270 in Las Vegas (25 years ago). It is easily one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. I have heard lots of people complain that they spent too much time, money and psychological goodwill on their elaborate marriage events, but I have never heard someone say they regretted a simple inexpensive wedding.

There are studies that the larger the bed (at home) and the fancier the reception, the shorter the marriage. But more friends means longer marriage. Basically a barbecue with heaps of mates predicts the longest marriages.

Of course the stats above are the land of correlations-not-causations; larger bed may mean financially more stable therefore more independant and less dependent on the partner’s income, or similar. Still fun ;)

Re: Marriage Costs in China Are Out of Control

#126

Post by fastball »

ForHackernews wrote: post #117
davidiach wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we don't maintain the replacement rate of 2.1 children per woman, the worlds population will eventually shrink exponentially. If that doesn't scare you, I don't know what will.

Why is that scary? Human civilization might be much more sustainable with a billion people, rather than currently-predicted peak of 10 billion. I'm much more worried about climate change leading to war and famine than I am about women voluntarily choosing to have fewer children. As far as I can see, population decline is only a problem because our current economic system assumes endless growth.

If women consistently have < 2 children the population won't stabilize at 1 billion.

Re: Marriage Costs in China Are Out of Control

#127

Post by namanyayg »

amrx431 wrote: post #85
namanyayg wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What city do you live in? I'm from Delhi and the situation is very different here for sure. And in India, the girl's family usually pays dowry (usually much more than $10k + gold jewelry) to the guy's family, so that's something literally opposite to China culture? As another commenter mentioned, the situation in metro is developed enough where you'll find a partner through love rather than status.

I am originally from Bihar but currently in Bengaluru. I know about the dowry but in my case its quite the opposite due to my caste. I am low caste(chamar) with no family. Any meaningful and prospective relationship shuts down as soon as my caste comes to light. Should I try moving to Delhi?Would my caste be an issue with girls and their parents from Delhi?

I am unsure of the details of the caste situation and marriage, in my metro upbringing I haven't seen any instances of caste discrimination at all (I am vaishya). However, from the fact that you're active on HN does tell me that you're cut from a different cloth than your peers and I do feel that you'll have better luck in metros.

Re: Marriage Costs in China Are Out of Control

#128

Post by watwut »

thrower123 wrote: post #124
watwut wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. How did it happened? They killed female babies?

It's been a considerable time since I was doing coursework on that period, but in broad strokes I recall it went something like this: 1.) Culturally, there was a broad understanding that males remain within their birth family lineages, whereas women leave and join their husband's family. 2.) Male children were expected to provide for their parents in old age, whereas (again if I recall correctly) it was customary to…

Thank you.

Re: Marriage Costs in China Are Out of Control

#129

Post by watwut »

gaius wrote: post #84
watwut wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are gender imbalances destabilising historically? It woild be interesting to see the history. After wars there was lack of men in some areas. Excess of men was during gold rush, in Australia and is in silicon valley. (I am not sure how much it proves or disproved theory.)

Are gender imbalances destabilising historically? It woild be interesting to see the history. I've often wondered to what extent it explains the situation in Afghanistan. If there is a shortage of women anyway due to poor healthcare and other factors, and some men get to have multiple wives, what do the other men do?

Might have more to do with armies (Russian) making Afghanistan their playground in the past and Americans sponsor in resistance (terrorism) to defend.

Re: Marriage Costs in China Are Out of Control

#130

Post by tinkerteller »

beerlord wrote: post #6

I think the title is misleading: its not really marriage costs, its a payment to the bride/parents to account for the gender disparity in China caused by sex-selective abortions. These bride costs should be allowed to climb infinitely, because it will serve as an incentive for families to have girls - and actually sex-selectively abort boys. Unfortunately we are seeing all this in the West, where Asian migrants to co…

Not true. Inter-racial marriages are actually very rare in all western countries, just a drop in bucket (although they are more visible because of our tendency to remember surprises more often than norms). Usually Asian boys would travel back to their home country and marry someone from there based on their much better economic status.
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