Live data from Hacker News

Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

asymco.com

121–130 of 263 posts

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#121
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe was asking for something akin to old Nokia phones.

The old Nokia phones used another strategy (and so did most other vendors): Every new model used a different battery. Which at the same time obsoleted the battery in the old model, i.e. no new batteries were produced. You could still buy them, but they would have stayed on the shelf for a long time - in other words, they were as old as the battery you replaced. I bought a number of replacement batteries over the year…

> Every new model used a different battery.

In the 90s when the phones were rapidly evolving and the batteries where huge and often incorporated into the exterior design of the phone. My first Nokia ~1997 was the size of a large TV remote, the second was the size of a king size snickers, the third was smaller than a regular size snickers.

I had the Nokia 8290, and 6590 which were about 2 years apart and they used the same battery. They really didn't have that many batteries across their line after 1999:

http://pinoutguide.com/CellularPhones-A-N/nokia_blb_battery_...

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#122
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm talking about security fixes to non-newest versions of iOS. Apple just does not do them.

To nitpick actually they have. IOS 6.1.2 came out 6 months after iOS 7 But what unpatched security flaws have been reported in older versions of iOS that would allow an attacker to install a keylogger or otherwise exfiltrate user data?

> But what unpatched security flaws have been reported in older versions of iOS that would allow an attacker to install a keylogger or otherwise exfiltrate user data?

I don't follow the field of iOS security. I only know that, like everyone whose computing devices handle sensitive data and/or money, I want my system to be patched ASAP if a vulnerability is detected. AFAIK, Apple makes no such guarantees.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How easy is it for end-users to replace the clutch in that off-warranty Civic? For that matter, how many people even change their own brakes (one of the easiest DIY tasks, IMO)? You comparing apples and oranges. There is a difference between a task that genuinely requires labor (replacing brakes), and something that is artificially harder solely to discourage people from doing it, but could (and ought) to be a simpl…

One person's "intentionally making it more complex" is another person's "waterproof to two meters".

Have gaskets really been forgotten for technical reasons or were they quietly smothered when the planned obsolescence benefits of potting entered the industry's consciousness?

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#124
post #76
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The battery is replaceable in most (all?) of their products, just not by the user. Battery service is sold on their site today.

This is only convenient for users who can afford to be without their phone for a day or two, and also those who are anywhere near an Apple store / service centre. Perhaps there is data that supports the statement "this is most users", but as an Apple customer who travels a lot and is not anywhere near an Apple service centre most of the time, this is very inconvenient. I'd rather just be able to order a new battery,…

Can I ask how often do you replace batteries on your phone that it must be done when you far away and it affects your productivity? Or is just another example of the strawman in this discussion?

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#125
post #3

That is all very well and I really appreciate Apple's long support for iPhones, but Apple did popularize firmly bonded batteries in its phones and even in notebooks. A battery is a wear part and should be easy to replace. Every thing else leads to more waste.

> A battery is a wear part and should be easy to replace

In my experience, the screen is the wear part. As a klutz, I prefer the lighter phone (which impacts with less force) bonded batteries enable to a user-replaceable batter phone whose broken screen forces replacement.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#126
post #124
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is only convenient for users who can afford to be without their phone for a day or two, and also those who are anywhere near an Apple store / service centre. Perhaps there is data that supports the statement "this is most users", but as an Apple customer who travels a lot and is not anywhere near an Apple service centre most of the time, this is very inconvenient. I'd rather just be able to order a new battery,…

Can I ask how often do you replace batteries on your phone that it must be done when you far away and it affects your productivity? Or is just another example of the strawman in this discussion?

I keep my phones for 2 - 5 years.

During that time, I'd need to replace the battery at least once, maybe twice.

Its not a straw man argument - but I find your response telling. Perhaps its not clear to a majority of HN users, but not all of us iPhone users live within productive reach of an Apple Store. Getting to one in person can be very inconvenient if you're not an American in a metropolitan city.

This is a very USA-centric point of view, you know.

Having a user-replaceable battery would go a long way towards assuaging the hassle of having to deal with Apple Service. Especially in parts of the world that don't have that luxurious, consumer-friendly, American-style glass facade with its fancy logo and happy green-shirt wearing customer reps ..

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#127
post #112
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It shows that sustainability is not even an afterthought. Everybody is ok with throwing away perfectly working devices (i.e. devices that were blazing fast just a couple years ago and now, with some crippling os updates, take 10 seconds to open a PDF) just because they're 3-5 years old. Let's see if Apple really does change their policy on this. For premium, very expensive phones, it would be reasonable for them to b…

> Everybody is ok with throwing away > perfectly working devices People do that? All the iPhones I ever owned were passed on to someone. The oldest are not in the useable state right now I guess, but I hope they were given for recycling not just thrown away.

I don't know about throwing away, but I certainly know several people who have a drawer full of old smartphones they're never going to use again.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#128
post #84
post #12

You know what helps products last longer and reduces waste at the same time? Repairability . The repairability of apple products is so poor that even Apple can't fix most of their own products without replacing surprisingly large portions of any given Apple device. End user repairability has been utterly neglected. Disassembly is frequently impossible without causing damage, and components such as batteries are frequ…

Repairabiliy is important. But I think durability is more important as it requires no action by the user. iPhones are pretty solid as far as lasting a long time. I’m using a 5S that is 3 years old and it’s my daily driver. I passed on my old 4 that is still being used as a Netflix/ web browser. This is contrary to competitor phones that have hardware issues as well as ability to keep getting software updates. Nexus 5…

iOS 12 runs on the 5s.

https://www.apple.com/ios/ios-12/

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#129
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To nitpick actually they have. IOS 6.1.2 came out 6 months after iOS 7 But what unpatched security flaws have been reported in older versions of iOS that would allow an attacker to install a keylogger or otherwise exfiltrate user data?

> But what unpatched security flaws have been reported in older versions of iOS that would allow an attacker to install a keylogger or otherwise exfiltrate user data? I don't follow the field of iOS security. I only know that, like everyone whose computing devices handle sensitive data and/or money, I want my system to be patched ASAP if a vulnerability is detected. AFAIK, Apple makes no such guarantees.

The alternative is Android that has a much weaker security model and where the manufacturers don’t offer patches for more than two years if at all.

But as far as iOS, I am not aware of any unpatched security vulnerabilities that have been reported in over ten years that would allow an app to exfiltrate sensitive data from another app on a none jailbroken device.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#130
post #90
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know what helps products last longer and reduces waste at the same time? Repairability. This is understandably a very popular assumption amongst people who like to tinker but it's oversimplified. "Repairability" is only a positive in the absence of any other factors. Devices that are harder to repair can also increase the active matter to dead matter ratio which reduces a whole host of energy and material requi…

Repairability as a goal or standard recognizes that no product is perfect, and that if or when something inside it goes wrong or needs servicing, it should be easy to do so. Batteries are a wear item for example, and should be easy to swap out with spares available freely. They aren't. Screens and glass backs are prone to cracking and shattering - not an issue in a desktop monitor or a TV, or even a laptop, but a big…

>and that if or when something inside it goes wrong or needs servicing, it should be easy to do so.

Be careful and precise please. What to you mean by "easy" here in the context of the general public? I think what most people mean by "easy" is "I drop it off/send it away, and I get back something working within a day to a week depending on the product and faster is better, and it costs me nothing for [reasonable amount, minimum 2 years then 1 year per $300 up to 5 years] and then is reasonable for the remaining expected product lifespan" and how that happens matter not one whit. Case in point:

>Batteries are a wear item for example, and should be easy to swap out with spares available freely.

I strongly disagree with you on multiple levels here. I want my mobile device optimized for the general use case, which is when I have it on me by itself and it is working. That means the highest active matter ratio possible while also being as passively environmentally resistant as possible and it being functional for a few years at a time. Exceptional scenarios can be handled with cases. It's always possible to add extra matter for protection or battery, but obviously the base phone defines the minimums. Beyond that I'm perfectly happy to bring it to a service center for an hour dealing with the battery every 2-3 years. "Easy to swap out" is a negative here because it lowers the active matter ratio and effectiveness of the device in the most common scenario in favor of a niche concern [1]. And while I expect batteries to last for their rated lifespan and that to be what most would expect under normal usage (couple of years), I do not expect them to be "available freely" beyond that, they're a complex and critical core component that can expected to be a not-insignificant percentage of device BOM.

>Screens and glass backs are prone to cracking and shattering

No they aren't. They're very resistant to cracking and shattering, but a small percentage of people are prone to dropping them or need to use them in extreme environments. Those people should take advantage of the wide variety of 3rd party products optimized specifically for their individualized use case.

>I'd be happy to see some kind of legislation put easy access to spare parts as a priority.

I have strongly (to the extent I am able) fought such legislation, I think it's awful and wrong headed. What I would very much support is legislation along the lines I've discussed, requiring manufacturers to Deal With non-functional devices of customers for a good 2-5 years are no extra cost beyond perhaps extreme shipping, and requiring them to then 'ensure service is available' at cost of time&parts for some period afterwards. I expect different companies targeting different use cases and different segments of the population would adopt different methods to meet this. Some of them would definitely focus heavily on ease of repairability, particularly at the low end. Others would lean more heavily on engineering/production, QC, and "insurance" (replacement margin built-in to price). Either is fine, it's not a moral question just one of results.

----

1: One which I question anyway, it exclusively applies to someone who needs more then internal battery life and requires specifically the extremely narrow band of a somewhat heavier phone or worse battery life phone but not quite as much as a minimal battery case would be and must use it constantly for hours with only seconds of downtime running around (or else it'd be better to just plug it in to a larger battery for a little bit while grabbing a snack or it's steady or whatever). Frankly I struggle to figure out who exactly this applies to for mobile devices.

Post reply on HN