But this bot can defeat a bunch of heralds and guardian players.
OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]
121–130 of 172 posts
Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]
#122> OpenAI is a non-profit artificial intelligence research company that aims to promote and develop _FRIENDLY AI_ in such a way as to benefit humanity as a whole. I find it amusing & ironic that they're pursuing games of efficiently & strategically killing enemies as examples of their successful progress. ;-)
> I find it amusing & ironic that they're pursuing games of efficiently & strategically killing enemies as examples of their successful progress. ;-) Except that the amusement and irony would cease to exist once you have some idea of what's happening behind the scenes. The AI doesn't know it's "killing enemies". For it, it's just something that results in the increase of a numerical reward signal.
Obviously. I understand the accomplishments and applicability of the tech.
Stepping back a bit and simply looking at the context, though, it is an amusing contrast.
Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]
#123Earlier quoted context omitted.
Here is a post from the Dota 2 subreddit discussing the timing with proof that OpenAI's reaction was over the 200ms minimum: https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/94vdpm/openai_hex_wa...
Yeah. I agree. It was over the 200ms minimum but it was artificial. No human could reasonably perform that type of action as relilably. And that has nothing to do with learning performance.
You can queue abilities to instantly cast them after the previous one finishes, so it is actually quite reasonable for a human to perform that type of action quite reliably.
Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]
#124Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, there are way more than 200 players better than Pain, all due respect to them. That’s clear by looking at leaderboards. But team dynamics and synergy in this game matter so much that they are definitely in the top 20 of teams regardless of their individual skill. Seeing OpenAI do so well against this team impressed the hell out of me.
The way TI is structured they invite one team from South America. So Pain is likely not in top 20, but still a very good team.
I know how TI is structured, but I’m confident they’re top 20 anyway. Which team not at TI is better, do you think? Complexity? Navi? I don’t think so.
Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can't they "just" add a cost to each API call ? Wanna know the position of an enemy on the map: 50ms. Target a hero/creep/tower: 75ms.
Just make them drop the API and require use of computer vision on the same UI human players have to use.
Yeah, this is the thing that I wasn't expecting when I first saw this reporting. Preferably with some lag to cursor moves etc.
Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]
#126There are a lot of areas that OpenAI needs to improve on. the bots generally; 1. terrible at warding and dewarding 2. are terrible at using spell spam to farm. while their aoe spell usage is great in team fights, they suck at using spells to farm when they are alone. Gyro used his ult to farm a normal sized lane and still missed half the creeps. 3. don't understand bouncing spells like the lich nuke. In fact many tim…
Yeah but it's already sufficient to beat the cram at anything under 3k mmr. It's quite remarquable as most players are in this loW tier.
Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]
#127There are a lot of areas that OpenAI needs to improve on. the bots generally; 1. terrible at warding and dewarding 2. are terrible at using spell spam to farm. while their aoe spell usage is great in team fights, they suck at using spells to farm when they are alone. Gyro used his ult to farm a normal sized lane and still missed half the creeps. 3. don't understand bouncing spells like the lich nuke. In fact many tim…
You may be missing the point here: it's AI, so it doesn't "think" in terms of strategies or tactics like you do, it just runs countless simulations, figures out what works in those, and then blindly applies that. So if the human opponents do things it has not been trained to cope with, they'll have a significant edge.
Incidentally, this is pretty much what Kasparov did when playing Deep Blue, with some success: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Blue_versus_Garry_Kasparo...
Aside: As a non-Dota-playing HNer, the only one of those points I found comprehensible was #11. Gaming jargon can be pretty impenetrable to the uninitiated...
Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]
#128DoTA has come such a long way from being just a warcraft 3 mod. All those random pub matches I used to play with w33, analyzing all the patchnotes and .w3g replays before youtube was a thing, to shitty garena pubmatches, to a full fledge esports remake, to going to my first Dota TI2 international 2 years back, and now AI is being thrown in the mix. I wonder what the future of DoTA will look like now
But the popularity is a bit declining, isn't it?
Going to go off on a tangent here.
Yes and no. By raw numbers it certainly is in a state of decline. But put in context, it may have been inevitable. It has everything going against it.
DotA is a team game.
It's incredibly complex. Not easy to pick up. Mastery requires 1000's of hours. And it's miserable to play at the start.
The community is toxic. So random teams in a public match when you are new to the game compounds. Even if you aren't new, one way or another random teams can quite often be a frustrating experience that you just don't feel you have control over.
Compunding even further is the fact that once you start a game you are locked in for 35-55+ minutes. That can be 35 painful minutes of feeling crap.
Compare that to rising battle Royale games, and you get solo games you are allowed to be bad at and slowly get better in. And the time you spend in it is directly related to how much fun you have. And the games have a definite time cap. And the mechanics are simple. This holds true for a lot of other up and coming online casual multiplayer games.
Point is, Dota is destined to be niche as a game that is played.
What i would love to see is how the game can change externally to become more accessible to viewers. From client changes to community changes to changes in presenters, valve needs to step up to help people participate as spectators. The potential for the game to generate significant money lies in their pro circuit and it looks like valve is really stepping up their involvement here. Hopefully this continues.
The (somewhat poor) parallel is something like rugby or squash. Fairly arcane rules. A lot of people don't remember when they last played the game. But they can still be heavily invested in watching.
Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]
#129There are a lot of areas that OpenAI needs to improve on. the bots generally; 1. terrible at warding and dewarding 2. are terrible at using spell spam to farm. while their aoe spell usage is great in team fights, they suck at using spells to farm when they are alone. Gyro used his ult to farm a normal sized lane and still missed half the creeps. 3. don't understand bouncing spells like the lich nuke. In fact many tim…
If a team of humans made such horrible mistakes, they would never be able to compete nowhere near this level.
Is OpenAI's team-fight "so good" that compensates for these huge mistakes and allows them to compete with pro teams?
For me as a player, the team fights are quite confusing and overwhelming. The most complex part of the game.
If the OpenAI team got the teamfights covered that well, I'm pretty much sure they can improve their farming/warding techniques as well.
Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]
#130There are a lot of areas that OpenAI needs to improve on. the bots generally; 1. terrible at warding and dewarding 2. are terrible at using spell spam to farm. while their aoe spell usage is great in team fights, they suck at using spells to farm when they are alone. Gyro used his ult to farm a normal sized lane and still missed half the creeps. 3. don't understand bouncing spells like the lich nuke. In fact many tim…
If a team of humans made such horrible mistakes, they would never be able to compete nowhere near this level. Is OpenAI's team-fight "so good" that compensates for these huge mistakes and allows them to compete with pro teams? For me as a player, the team fights are quite confusing and overwhelming. The most complex part of the game. If the OpenAI team got the teamfights covered that well, I'm pretty much sure they c…
Yes, along with the fact that they are not really playing the same game that humans do:
- 5 invulnerable couriers per team allow for very constant poking and pushing styles as regeneration items can be ferried back and forth from the base. This favours team fighting deathball oriented strategies where you just have non-stop aggression.
- Very limited hero pool, this further compounds on the earlier issue as many good deathball team fighting heroes are on the available pool but some very common counters to this strategy are not.
Also, humans lack experience in this version of the modified "metagame" or they would likely be able to adapt. This is IMO the biggest hurdle for humans, they haven't really played this version of the game and they probably weren't exactly expecting it, the AI has trained over many "computational years", the humans have a couple of games to catch up.