A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos • Hacker News Board

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#121

Post by doctorsher » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 5:39 PM UTC

chess19 wrote: post #68

apo wrote: post #14

When you look at the stats, it’s hard not to conclude that the current PhD system is fundamentally broken. Mental health issues are rife: approximately one-third of PhD students are at risk of having or developing a psychiatric disorder like depression. The high level of dropouts is similarly worrying – and possibly another symptom of the same problem. Research suggests that on average 50% of PhD students leave gradu…

Of course this quote also suggests that maybe people who go in to PhD programs have higher rates of mental health issues. I would definitely argue that PhD programs are both bad for mental health and also attract people with poor mental health in the first place. I have known plenty of people who didn't feel like they had the skills (both technical and/or social) to go in to industry so they applied to grad school.

You bring up a solid point. It would be interesting to see, of the students leaving a PhD program with poor mental health, what fraction already entered the program with poor mental health? My hunch is that the stark majority acquired it while they were in the PhD program, but I have no data obviously.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#122

Post by abnry » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 5:43 PM UTC

JadeNB wrote: post #16

CJefferson wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your claim we could reduce mathematics research misses one big step -- that we can tell, in advance, which mathematicians (and researchers in general) are doing the "useful" research. In my experience that is very hard to predict. Also often researchers are "standing on the shoulders of giants", so the people who look most real world useful are extending earlier, "not useful" research.

In perhaps pithier words, accepting abnry's figures > It may be true that 80% of the mathematical research that is valuable to society is done by 20% of mathematicians. In this case, not much can be lost by reducing research funding. , you can probably get 80% of the return by cutting the right 80% of research; but, if you cut the wrong 80%, then you might be left with just the 20% return on the remaining 20% of work…

Meritocracy. The mathematicians at Princeton University are going to be producing potentially more valuable pure math research than a professor at name state university 145.

I don't know what the exact figure is, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was less than 25% of math PhDs who go on to get a research job in math. How much are we funding these students here? I was on the receiving end of some NSF money for a semester. Was it worth it for the NSF? I barely contributed much. Granted paying a grad student is relatively cheap. But I wouldn't hold it against the NSF if they were more stingy.

It may be that we really are funding the right amount and the benefits to the whole ecosystem are great. But I want someone to give a cool-headed discussion of the numbers, not some vague persuasiveness motivated by job security.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#123

Post by abnry » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 5:45 PM UTC

chess19 wrote: post #110

abnry wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be in a math PhD program. Probably would still be if not for some life circumstance. I think it is worth taking a hard look at the value all of this mathematical research actually produces. I understand how number theory has been useful to cryptography. I understand how branches of pure math can have a surprising influence. But when these examples are given by pure mathematicians, it often strikes me as ane…

I imagine that a lot of people responding to this do not realize how abstract modern pure mathematics is. The number theory that makes up the basis of cryptography was established in the 1700s. For example, Euler's theorem is the basis of RSA and was proven in 1763. The theorem is a small generalization of Fermat's little theorem which was known (but not proven) in 1640. These theorems are really just simple facts ab…

Exactly. Modern pure math is extremely abstract.

I want careful, level-headed arguments justifying research in swath of pure math fields. Give me numbers, give me details. Not just vague anecdotes. It may be worth the cost, but I don't want that taken for granted.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#124

Post by obmelvin » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 5:45 PM UTC

mikec3010 wrote: post #118

UncleMeat wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm the inverse, and so are most people I know. Every faculty member I spoke to in undergrad told me very clearly that a PhD was bad for my career, enormously stressful and risky, and led to a faculty job search that was likely to fail. I was told not to pursue it unless I desperately wanted to be a faculty member. The most common advice I got was "don't do it". This wasn't because I was a shitty candidate. I was acc…

That could also be gate keeping. The fewer people who want a slice of the pie the better.

That seems overly cynical to me. What GP was told is the honest truth. Even in STEM fields finding a faculty position is quite difficult.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#125

Post by doctorsher » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 5:46 PM UTC

bradhoffman wrote: post #84

You all are kind of scaring me a bit... I just finished my Bachelor's and am starting my Master's this month. I have no formal research experience, but I planned to dive in during my Master's. For anyone who has done/is doing there PhD, if there is any advice you all could give me in order to get the most out of this next year before I apply for PhD programs, that would be great.

What type of masters degree is it? Course-based or thesis-based? If you are interested in continuing on to a PhD, a thesis-based masters would give you a much better insight. Even better if you try to publish while you are getting your degree. If it is a course-based masters, it will take you a lot of extra work outside of classes to get a taste of research.

Do you already know your area of interest? This would be tremendously helpful for trying to pick an advisor.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#126

Post by JadeNB » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 5:48 PM UTC

abnry wrote: post #122

JadeNB wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In perhaps pithier words, accepting abnry's figures > It may be true that 80% of the mathematical research that is valuable to society is done by 20% of mathematicians. In this case, not much can be lost by reducing research funding. , you can probably get 80% of the return by cutting the right 80% of research; but, if you cut the wrong 80%, then you might be left with just the 20% return on the remaining 20% of work…

Meritocracy. The mathematicians at Princeton University are going to be producing potentially more valuable pure math research than a professor at name state university 145. I don't know what the exact figure is, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was less than 25% of math PhDs who go on to get a research job in math. How much are we funding these students here? I was on the receiving end of some NSF money for a semes…

> Meritocracy. The mathematicians at Princeton University are going to be producing potentially more valuable pure math research than a professor at name state university 145.

On average, maybe … but, if we just axe those at NSU 145, then we're definitely not going to be funding the proof of the bounded-gaps conjecture. Now, Zhang managed to prove it anyway (https://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2013/05/bounded_gaps_be...), but who knows how many people at small universities have a big proof in them, if they could only get the funding to have time to explore it?

(I would also argue that this is dangerously close to the point of view that big companies obviously know something about doing business successfully, so the best way to save government money spent on business is to cut out small-business loans.)

> I don't know what the exact figure is, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was less than 25% of math PhDs who don't go on to get a research job in math.

Did you flip a 'not' there? I suspect that it's the other way around, that less than 25% of math Ph.D.s do get a research job in math, or perhaps even worse. (At least, that's if by "research job in math" you mean "academic job in math with research expectations"; if you count industrial research, then maybe I believe it.)

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#127

Post by JadeNB » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 5:49 PM UTC

JadeNB wrote: post #12

Great, I can play too! Corporations should be about improving the public good, as they used to be [0], not chasing monetary value. Your turn! [0] Not just "in my day"-ism. According to "We the corporations", demonstrating this was originally part of the legal requirement for many governments' approval of articles of incorporation.

(I forgot to link to "We the corporations", which is an interesting book, and far from the screed its name suggests: http://books.wwnorton.com/books/detail.aspx?ID=4294993473 .)

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#128

Post by abnry » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 5:49 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #11

abnry wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be in a math PhD program. Probably would still be if not for some life circumstance. I think it is worth taking a hard look at the value all of this mathematical research actually produces. I understand how number theory has been useful to cryptography. I understand how branches of pure math can have a surprising influence. But when these examples are given by pure mathematicians, it often strikes me as ane…

Cryptography is a trivial example. The entire field of computing was invented by pure mathematicians like Turing and Church working in the 1930s. At the time, no one had any idea what the applications, if any, would be. It's like any science. Some work has immediate applications. Other work is pure exploration of the unknown. And it is pure exploration of the unknown that leads to the truly revolutionary discoveries.…

Something like the Fast Fourier Transform has had a much significant impact on society than a proof of the incomputability of the Busy Beaver function.

Saying that Turing and Church "invented computing" is too vague of a justification. I want numbers and details. Folks like Babbage were already thinking procedurally in practical enough terms that once the technological capability (not the theoretical capabilities) caught up, algorithms like the FFT could be discovered and put to use.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#129

Post by fastaguy88 » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 5:49 PM UTC

BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #102

fhood wrote: post #58

Man, this view of getting a PhD, which seems fairly common, is so alien to me. Both my parents are research professors, both regularly have students, and I have never seen any of the misery or stress that people keep bringing up. Sure, if you are unprepared to do research then you shouldn't do a PhD, but my parents' students are hand picked, and it is very rare that they end up with a student that doesn't want to, or…

> You ... are mostly removed from the politics and stress of securing funding. This is definitely not normal in the humanities. Want to continue working next year? Win this annual contest for your subfield that 800 other people are also applying for. It will cover your costs for 5 months if you win, after you spend an entire month preparing your submission for it. Didn't win this time? I guess you'll have to spend 20…

If you are thinking about getting a PhD (in any field), you should be looking at an institution that guarantee's N (typically 4 or 5) years of funding. The best (and even the better) graduate schools do this, even in the humanities. It is much harder to get a job appropriate for a Ph.D. if you do not get into one of those schools that guarantees funding.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#130

Post by abnry » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 5:51 PM UTC

LeanderK wrote: post #29

abnry wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be in a math PhD program. Probably would still be if not for some life circumstance. I think it is worth taking a hard look at the value all of this mathematical research actually produces. I understand how number theory has been useful to cryptography. I understand how branches of pure math can have a surprising influence. But when these examples are given by pure mathematicians, it often strikes me as ane…

but isn't pure math research very cheap (compared to the cost of other scientific research) and therefore could still be cost-effective?

It very well could be. I just dislike vague justifications that it actually is worth the cost. Give me numbers and details.