Six Months at Riot Games • Hacker News Board

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#121

Post by madengr » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:40 PM UTC

exelius wrote: post #31

shard972 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is something wrong with a culture that feels the need to supress what is effectively amateur comedy going on within small groups. Targeted harassment sure, that's not something to just blindly protect but as a homosexual, i see more harm in trying to police jimmy calling his friends faggots playing CoD than I see in allowing people to speak their minds. Until someone can posit a great explanation for wh…

It’s more that you shouldn’t use that word in the first place — it doesn’t matter if your friends are gay or not; the fact it’s a hateful insult that tells gay men they are lesser is enough. Imagine the young little gay kid who hears “f\ t” screamed 20 times an hour — how will that make him feel for the rest of his life? Are you just cementing in his head that it’s wrong to be gay? I hate to say it, but the days of a…

Who’s the “we’re”? I don’t agree with YouTube banning Alex Jones and numerous gun channels. I’ll probably cancel my YouTube red subscription over it.

25 years ago you would find the KKK show on NYC public access cable. A round table of guys in hoods, with an AK-47 table piece, talking about African Jews. That was there due to governments freedom of speech protections. Government is now turning a blind eye while corporate media monopolies get away with censorship.

If I were the FCC, I’d be shutting down YouTube.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#122

Post by ritchiea » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:40 PM UTC

eksemplar wrote: post #52

lsmarigo wrote: post #40

Interesting that this one is doing well compared to the longer in-depth kotaku article a few days ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17710188 - fwiw that piece has since been corroborated by a ton of former riot employees on twitter. At the risk of sounding overly cynical, this is all true and everyone knows about it, people feign disgust at these articles but we're all complicit and understanding that this is…

This is not the way things are though. I’m a manager, and I wouldn’t tolerate any of the painted stories for a second. In fact, none of the people in my network, which includes numerous large Scandinavian tech companies would tolerate anything of the sort. You do see that stuff, of course, but you see it mainly in children aged 10-15, and otherwise only in private, because anyone who keeps it up after that will be un…

Well she says in her account the large majority of people at Riot Games are lovely. The problem tends to be that there are powerful people who the company has strong reasons not to fire that perpetuate the worst behavior. Then the culture of ignoring the worst offenders allows other people to get away with little things. And the culture of ignoring things period, eats away at employees's sense of well being and sense that their workplace is fair and looks at them with respect.

I'm sure there are plenty of managers at Riot Games who wouldn't tolerate the stories for a second, but there are a few at or near the top that will and that can ruin an entire workplace.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#123

Post by shawn » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:41 PM UTC

ethbro wrote: post #118

shawn wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoken like someone who’s never played the game. Get ready to be banned for no fault of your own, just because your three teammates decided to report you for the lulz. There are people who post on /r/dota2 complaining that they get banned from the game for nothing but picking techies each game. They don’t even say anything. People just report them immediately. By the way, streamers are one of the most high impact use…

Just because there are false positives or one company has a bad implementation doesn't make it an unsolveable problem. As parent mentioned, ml sentiment analysis + logging + peer reporting + final human analysis = problem effectively combated It's the final human analysis that companies are loathe to fund (e.g. Facebook), as costs scale with user count. But it's not efficiently unsolveable with current tech. Therefor…

Kay. What are the odds that some HN commenters are going to solve the same problem that has been an active priority for years of the people in the field?

I can’t speak for Valve or Riot, but at S2 it was a concerning issue. There’s just no good way to do it when the people involved are actively malicious. If you think there is, get ready to have your community collapse around you as everyone complains about unfair bans.

I don’t think you really appreciate the scale of the problem. Final human analysis is not possible when there are literally millions of games per week. It’s also not something that ML can identify cleanly — the moment it does, the culture will adapt to bypass the evaluator. It always does.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#124

Post by ggregoire » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:42 PM UTC

Not sure why people are flagging this topic. (was on top of the first page 2min ago, it's on second page now)

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#125

Post by TomMarius » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:43 PM UTC

majewsky wrote: post #82

TomMarius wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree. Never wanted to say otherwise, just that it doesn't prevent it. I don't think your metaphor is correct, though. Some people actually thrive in this environment (of course most of the time at the cost of others, but let's put that aside - not that it's not a problem), who thrives while blindfolded?

> Who thrives while blindfolded? Those people that solve Rubik's Cubes while blindfolded, maybe?

I'm not sure that's thriving. They can do it very well, but the blindfold doesn't improve their performance.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#126

Post by masklinn » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:43 PM UTC

amarant wrote: post #42

masklinn wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Shared behaviour — even juvenile — creates strong in-group bounds. And some competition within a cooperative environment is common. Especially if most of the group does relatively menial work. Furthermore juvenile behaviour is commonly encouraged by both gaming and SV companies/corps: aside from being convenient to pull in just out of college without necessitating their adaptation to adulthood, it also serves as…

I mean, you would appear to be right. I wont argue the contrary. still, I had not expected it.

The dynamic seems fairly similar to army grunts.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#127

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:43 PM UTC

ggregoire wrote: post #124

Not sure why people are flagging this topic. (was on top of the first page 2min ago, it's on second page now)

There's enough of a pro-sexism faction to flag it off the front page, this usually happens to discussions of sexism in tech.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#128

Post by mozumder » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:44 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #102

mozumder wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, in tech, do people not go to strip clubs anymore? Like, what's the culture now? Are all interpersonal relationships now formalized into an algorithm? Do people not get into actual fistfights at the office anymore?

> do people not go to strip clubs anymore? I've been in the industry 20 years and not had that happen anywhere I worked in the UK. > Are all interpersonal relationships now formalized into an algorithm? Eh? > Do people not get into actual fistfights at the office anymore? The guy I knew who did that at his gaming company Christmas party got put on "final warning" for a year.

> I've been in the industry 20 years and not had that happen anywhere I worked in the UK.

Do you think that's because of the corporate culture you're at or due to you personally not knowing about it?

What do you do after-hours at conferences in Vegas? Check out the Britney Spears show or Cirque du Soleil?

> The guy I knew who did that at his gaming company Christmas party got put on "final warning" for a year.

So, how come he didn't get fired? Was he critical to project success at all?

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#129

Post by ck425 » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:44 PM UTC

zimablue wrote: post #56

Looking at this skeptically, given that as she says she put a target on her own back there's not much concrete here about problems she personally faced. Companies have a culture, it might not be your culture, and it's mental to expect to be able to walk in and attack it in the first six months then everything be sweetness and joy. Joining a gaming company and complaining about female outfits is roughly equivalent to…

> "I saw men acting the way men do in a very male environment and objectifying/trying to sleep with women."

Enough with the boys will be boys angle. That behavior doesn't have to be the default male behavior. It shouldn't be the default male behavior.

Enough is enough, that's not ok anymore. And we men need start calling each other out on it.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#130

Post by zimablue » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:46 PM UTC

detaro wrote: post #112

zimablue wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's fair enough but in some cultures it's fairly common. I am not a big bro guy but I've definitely discussed women with male friends/colleagues. I don't think it's super demeaning or immoral to discuss girls that you like, it's just getting very taboo in parts of Western culture when done by men. Sex dynamics are like at the core of society it's all still happening whether you're speed to discuss it or not.

There's also a difference between "talking about women" and the things described in the article (and a lot of different ways of talking about women, which can be done without degrading language). Calling a coworker a "Ho" or complaining they'd not be willing to share a hotel room with an unknown man is not the same level as "they didn't like that we talk about women".

I think the Ho thing was clearly an attempt at humor, and an attempt to "bring her in" to the group. It's like an old job where I was called a coal miner (being the only guy from north England). It's a nice thing, you're taking stick but that's how male groups normally bond. Instead of taking the humor as it's intended she takes offense, and what's really happening is that instead of submitting to their culture and joining the group within it, she's trying to impose her own external culture to the group and not joining it.

Being able to live your life always refusing to step outside your own culture is in itself kind of a form of privilege. In another, wealthier-born life I'd never have worked for most of my companies and spent my whole life chilling with academics that I naturally resonate with. I could have quit when I got friendly insults or had to join in the drinking culture and written angry articles about it but I'm not sure that would make me worthy of respect.

The bit about hotel room with a random man is a bit nuts but I think her relationship with the guy had just degraded as he saw her as a SJW and he was trying (mistakenly) to take an opportunity to hit her with what he saw as her own arguments.