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Project Fuchsia: Google Is Quietly Working on a Successor to Android

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Re: Project Fuchsia: Google Is Quietly Working on a Successor to Android

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If an engineer isn't producing something worthwhile, he's not a good engineer, certainly not "one of my best engineers". Not my experience. I've seen amazing engineers happily convince themselves whatever they are working on is important regardless of what it is. In fact its pretty common for really good engineers to simply fall in love with the code - or be convinced if they only finished this refactor it would be…

For a functional employer, the definition of "a good engineer" is "someone who produces valuable engineering solutions for me". An engineer who isn't doing that is either mismanaged, misplaced, or is no good. In the first two cases, I can possibly make use of them. But if the engineer is a diva who would only work on some made-up fancy project, then he is not a good engineer for me. Maybe he will be able to do good w…

Generally its the managers responsibility to ensure they are working on what is important. That's literally their entire job. An employee capable of convincing themselves whatever they work on is important is a net benefit to the manager - they are more malleable and can be convinced to work on the important but "boring" parts.

An employee refusing to work on something because in their opinion its not worthwhile is a tough place for both the employee and the manager.

Re: Project Fuchsia: Google Is Quietly Working on a Successor to Android

#122
post #86
post #60

"One person who has spoken to Fuchsia staff described the effort simply: "It’s a senior-engineer retention project." This has been my therory for a while. You see all these different projects competing against each other (multiple messaging apps are a good example) and you think: why is Google so unfocused? But what Google basically wants to do is hoard engineers so they don't leave and go work for competitors and ma…

Per the article, Google has over 100 engineers working on Fuchsia. If these are all "senior engineers" that "Google is trying to retain", the cost of keeping them must be at least 50 million per year. That's a lot of money to pay just for retention of people who are not producing anything of value, consuming many other resources (office space, network, hardware, perks), and deeply committed to a project that supposed…

> the cost of keeping them must be at least 50 million per year.

There's a high likelihood that at least some of their work will be of value to the company—or, if everything pans out, they get a fancy new platform. The real motivation is probably somewhere in the middle (retention, product development).

This is a solid bet to make, especially when you are effectively not worried about the cost (thanks, ads!).

A lot of Google is heavily research focused like this: let engineers (mostly) freely explore complicated problem spaces. If it's a product—awesome!—see if there's market fit, and then grow it. If not, no problem; see where it, or parts thereof, can be applied elsewhere within Google.

Source: I worked there.

Re: Project Fuchsia: Google Is Quietly Working on a Successor to Android

#123
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per the article, Google has over 100 engineers working on Fuchsia. If these are all "senior engineers" that "Google is trying to retain", the cost of keeping them must be at least 50 million per year. That's a lot of money to pay just for retention of people who are not producing anything of value, consuming many other resources (office space, network, hardware, perks), and deeply committed to a project that supposed…

> If these are all "senior engineers" that "Google is trying to retain", the cost of keeping them must be at least 50 million per year. Wait uh... are you saying seniors at Google make an average of $500k?

Some do. If you add bonuses and stock grands it can get to at least half a million per year

Re: Project Fuchsia: Google Is Quietly Working on a Successor to Android

#124

Did anyone think maybe using a pinkish shade for a Second System codename is asking for it to fail? Apple had a Project Pink back in '88 to be the successor to System Software 6. They hoped to release it in 1993, instead buying NeXT in 1997 and launching OS X in 2001: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copland_(operating_system)#Pin... Microsoft's Project Pink was the result of their Danger acquisition. It didn't fare wel…

The Fuchsia name is derived from projects the primary Fuchsia OS developers previously worked on at Apple - Project Pink and Project Purple. Pink + Purple = Fuchsia.

Re: Project Fuchsia: Google Is Quietly Working on a Successor to Android

#125
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ad team prevailed, this person said. Of course they did. A controversial idea, but you know how much easier this would be for everyone if Google offered an option for users to be paid for volunteering your information to them? It's a precedent most fledgling ad companies wouldn't be able to match... even if it's just a few dollars a month, or maybe 30ish bucks a year. It'd cut into Google's bottom line, but it…

The main reason why this won't work is that majority of public simply prefers free ad-infested services over paid ad-free ones. Case in point - YouTube Red and it's abysmal adoption rate. One might reasonable argue that YT Red just removes ads, but doesn't do anything for privacy / data collection. But I have two questions for them: 1. what makes you think people would gladly pay for privacy (any glaring example)? ,…

> The main reason why this won't work is that majority of public simply prefers free ad-infested services over paid ad-free ones.

Counterpoint: Apple, one of the most profitable companies.

People have been giving their money to Apple before they even flaunted a strong pro-privacy stance, and I have yet to see an ad from Apple that I did not opt in for (although their recent Apple Pay emails have been slightly annoying, given that I'm in a country where I cannot use Apple Pay but there's no option to opt-out from only Apple Pay related emails while still receiving offers for other Apple services.)

Re: Project Fuchsia: Google Is Quietly Working on a Successor to Android

#126
Surely Google are setting themselves up for another $5G EU antitrust fine?

I thought one of the core reasons for the fine was the restriction in the Mobile Applications Distribution Agreement that a company couldn't develop a competing OS...

Yet Google is?

Alternatively they will use it as the core for a new "Nexus" line to compete with Apple, and not licence Fuscia as a platform (avoiding dominance of the mobile "Platform Market" by doing what Apple are doing).

Re: Project Fuchsia: Google Is Quietly Working on a Successor to Android

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$50M is tiny compared to the opportunity cost of having 100 of your best engineers jump ship to a competitor or found a new one. Google will pay $50M for a startup with 10 proven engineers and then shut down their product, just so that they aren't on the open market where they can challenge the $50B+ golden goose. Silicon Valley basically works on the principle of "Never let your employees do to you what you did to y…

> $50M is tiny compared to the opportunity cost of having 100 of your best engineers jump ship to a competitor or found a new one. See my comment to nnq. You can't just take "100 of your best engineers", and stick them on some bogus project that regularly gets raided for its best talent by hiring managers. If they'd rather work on a bogus project than on a real product, they're not very useful engineers. The project…

> Have you worked for a FAANG?

I was at Google for 5.5 years and was the beneficiary of an engineer-retention project for a year of that. I'm now working on a startup.

Think of it from the company's perspective: they have an engineer who has already been "paid off" in the sense of having generated more revenue for the company than they are likely to get in salary during a lifetime, and is likely independently wealthy through stock options. That engineer comes to them and says "I'm unhappy here and thinking of leaving so I can work on personal projects." The company does not want to see them on the open market, where they can potentially compete with Google or work for a competitor. So their manager asks them "Well, what is it you really want to work on? Maybe we can make it happen here and you don't have to leave all the perks of Google behind." The engineer says "I've always wanted to do OS development, and there's a bunch of neat research developments like capabilities that haven't yet been incorporated in a production OS." The manager says, "Hmm, I know of some guys over in this other department that have similar ideas. Why don't you connect with them and see if your interests align?"

Google wins because it keeps these talented engineers off the market, and if the project succeeds they can win in a really big way. The employee wins because they don't have to deal with all the risk and bullshit of being unemployed or starting their own thing. Competitors lose but screw them. Consumers probably lose, but it's not a sure thing because if their project succeeds, consumers can win in a big way, so Google doesn't get into antitrust or anticompetitive trouble for it.

This is not unlimited, BTW. The unofficial rule-of-thumb when I was at Google is that "you get one freebie" - if you were instrumental to the success of a project that made Google much more than you're ever likely to make in salary, you get one chance at a self-directed project. If that fails, you either go back to being an ordinary rank-and-file engineer and have to prove yourself, or you get marginalized and usually leave. Public examples of such projects include Google Scholar (Anurag basically ran the crawl single-handedly for many years, and so he gets to indulge his passion project because Google wouldn't exist without him), Golang (Ken Thompson is Ken Thompson and Rob Pike basically built the log handling infrastructure for Google), Google Wave (the Rasmussen brothers basically founded Google Maps), Hello.com (Orkut Buyokokkten's passion project, eventually spun out), and Andy Rubin's robot collection.

Re: Project Fuchsia: Google Is Quietly Working on a Successor to Android

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google doesn't sell your data. Advertisers pay Google to deliver their ads to the demographic they want to target.

Right. They don’t sell our data, they rent us out to the highest bidder. Much better.

Well, at least they don't let governments have free unfettered access to their users data.

Re: Project Fuchsia: Google Is Quietly Working on a Successor to Android

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no stable driver interface, they are still learning how to cope with this. There is a ton of cruft in the APIs, like any large project would have. One of the engineer in the Android framework team described creating APIs as generating future regrets. Some of the mistakes are pretty small. Like internally the system reuse drawable instances in order to save memory, but instead of making this process entirely automatic…

Then, of course, there's this: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-...

I would argue there's a difference between "rewriting the project" and "building something new based on additional decades of experience in the domain". Taken too literally, your comment suggests we should never e.g. write a new filesystem. Should Apple have taken Joel's advice and stuck with HFS+ forever? Sometimes the world changes enough that you can't keep grafting onto the old system, and need a new one.

I don't know if Linux/Fuchsia meets those criteria, but given that there are extremely smart people at Google working on it, I would think that it's at least plausible.

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