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European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

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Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#121

Post by ericdykstra »

realusername wrote: post #52
tomaha wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this definition is that it also assumes that if you have 75%+ market share you're likely having a similar share of the profits which is not the case here. If you take profit into account it's really at best a 50-50 market for Google.

Monopolies are not based on the profit but market share. Yes Apple has a very profitable niche but that does not mean Android does not have a near-monopoly on smartphones.

No, a monopoly is controlling a market to the point where competition is restricted via controlling supply or other means. A company can have 100% market share and not be a monopoly (which is always what happens when a new market emerges).

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#122

Post by Fnoord »

rjvbk wrote: post #21
vivan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my country, iOS are more than 50% of the market. I haven't been able to find any EU-wide numbers though, which are the important ones in this case.

http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/europe It gets much worse depending on the country: http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/italy http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/spain

Richer countries naturally have more iOS devices because those are more expensive. With Android, you pay with your privacy. Unless you opt out of GMS, but that's an all of nothing deal.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#123

Post by SiempreViernes »

theBobBob wrote: post #103

Very slightly off topic but I actually think how Android handles default apps is the best of both worlds. It comes with very very good default Google Apps that work well together but it is very easy to switch out whatever you want for an alternative. How iOS handles it is the opposite. For their default apps they either straight out not allow competitors, severely limit what their competitors or (if I remember correc…

Could you please tell me how I can uninstall the default apps, or at least keep them from constantly updating themselves? That half a gig of unwanted apps that just keeps growing itself is pretty annoying.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#124

Post by repolfx »

sveme wrote: post #111
repolfx wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To put it in a slightly different context, this is more money than the annual contributions of quite a few EU member states. Google is now a bigger contributor to the EU budget than Belgium, the Netherlands or Ireland. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/external/html/budgetataglance/... Fines paid to the EU go straight into its own general budget. Combined with the nature of the EU Commission as judge, jury and executione…

> EU Commission as judge, jury and executioner The executive fines someone (like you are fined for violating parking regulations), then you can appeal that fine in court, in this case most likely the ECJ. Would you argue that it's wrong to address a coporation's wrongdoings? EU companies are fined regularly as well, might not create such an upheaval in the US media, though.

If the government believes people have broken the law, in a democracy that means civil servants have to launch a criminal case and win a prosecution.

The EU is not structured like that, and thus doesn't have to win any prosecution. Margrethe Vestager just issue a proclamation with a number she and the Commission picked out of the air, and the deed is done.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#125

Post by peteretep »

jaimex2 wrote: post #43

Can Google just close shop in the EU and ignore the fine? Nothing they provide really mandates they have a physical presence.

Losing out on a market place with 22% of the world GDP and ceding it to Amazon, Apple and Microsoft would probably invite at least a little bit of shareholder challenge.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#126

Post by furyg3 »

naturalgradient wrote: post #109
heracles wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most (all?) other fields of law you are expected to abide by the rules as they are stated, or risk being punished by the legislative powers. That's not a vendetta, that's law as it is most commonly practiced. I don't see why EU should "work with google" to make them follow regulations (EDIT: beyond the threat of punishment).

The problem is that antitrust laws like these are very selectively enforced. Selection and prosecution of these cases is hence inherently political as these are non-standardized arguments or verdicts.

That only means that Google did (or should have done) a risk assessment and cost-benefit analysis on getting fined by the EU on this topic.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#127

Post by lotsofpulp »

close04 wrote: post #68
TekMol wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. Looks like they are getting used to paying fines as a regular part of their business. Maybe in future earning reports we will see statements like "Legal fines went up 80% YOY from $7B to $12B and we are planning to continue our aggressive spendings in this area to expand our market dominance".

When the fines are lower than the expected benefit from your "wrongdoing" then what's the incentive to stop? As a person getting caught stealing/defrauding/etc. you would have to pay restitution and additional fines/time in prison. This is how it should work for businesses to. If the goal is to actually prevent future abuse.

You would have to record every single conversation to pin intent on specific individuals. This is one big advantage of being concentrated in cities, you can meet face to face with people and discuss things without fear of legal repercussions.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#128

Post by cageface »

sveme wrote: post #119
repolfx wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Apple hasn't been fined in the same way. So apparently if Google had kept Android proprietary, and made their own hardware, they'd be totally OK, even though there'd only be two phone makers left in the world instead of dozens like there is now? I'm sorry but this move is garbage. I am British and I'm so glad the UK is leaving this horrible, success hating farce of a union. Google paid billions to develop Android…

Isn't it great that you're heading for a hard brexit, then? If the competition is no level-playing field anymore, how should a local company be successful? Your points have been addressed above already, if Apple had a dominant market position, the EU would have handled things differently. And Apple has been fined by the EU before as well.

As Apple fans always rush to point out, Apple owns most of the really profitable users, so if I'm developing a new app or website I have to play by their rules and can only rely on technologies and protocols Apple supports.

Raw numbers don't tell the whole story here.

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#129

Post by rusk »

oliwarner wrote: post #107
rusk wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The demand was that Apple pay €13B in back taxes. > it should have been blindingly obvious and yet, it took a deep-dive investigation by the commission with a team of specialists to untangle it.

The EU's demand was that Ireland collect that tax from Apple. And blindingly obvious to Apple , the benefactor. When somebody says, "Hey come and do your stuff here, we'll only charge you 0.005% corp tax!" you should expect that their wider financial governing body (who is losing out severely because of a deal like that) might have something to say about it.

You think it was blindingly obvious to Apple that they would have had to pay this tax eventually? Seems to me and everyone else it was an attempt at a stroke. You're alleging that Apple were a passive actor.

You saw that thing in the ICIJ Jersey papers leak where Apple went round the world actively seeking jurisdictions that would twist their tax rules to suit them?

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/apple-s-cash-mountain-ho...

Re: European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitrust case

#130

Post by heracles »

naturalgradient wrote: post #109
heracles wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most (all?) other fields of law you are expected to abide by the rules as they are stated, or risk being punished by the legislative powers. That's not a vendetta, that's law as it is most commonly practiced. I don't see why EU should "work with google" to make them follow regulations (EDIT: beyond the threat of punishment).

The problem is that antitrust laws like these are very selectively enforced. Selection and prosecution of these cases is hence inherently political as these are non-standardized arguments or verdicts.

That is a fair point, but isn't it built into this particular field?

We can prosecute equally for jaywalking, but anti-competitive behavior gets worse the bigger the offender is and/or the worse offense they commit. So in that way it makes sense to prosecute "top-down", that is go after the biggest ones first.

That's at least what I prefer as an EU member state citizen and consumer.

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