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Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

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Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#121

Post by mercer »

vinceguidry wrote: post #100
wruza wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether you can learn and grow depends on various factors, actually. Some people can’t learn and grow due to internal and external issues, living relatively crappy live until death. And by ‘some’ I mean many. You may have a potential but may not see a way to discharge it. >trick ourselves In a way a broken engine tricks itself into not working. “You’re 300HP, just start, dude!”

People aren't engines. They don't just break.

It's true that people aren't engines, but it's also true that people break, and often in ways that are much more difficult to diagnose and fix (or even notice).

I think depression, suicide, and much of the time addiction are clear signs that humans can break and not have the strength to 'turn back', at least not with a ton of help.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#122

Post by vinceguidry »

mercer wrote: post #121
vinceguidry wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People aren't engines. They don't just break.

It's true that people aren't engines, but it's also true that people break, and often in ways that are much more difficult to diagnose and fix (or even notice). I think depression, suicide, and much of the time addiction are clear signs that humans can break and not have the strength to 'turn back', at least not with a ton of help.

Help can be asked for. From people or from God. It's when we choose not to ask, choose not to avail ourselves of the many many resources that society has to offer, that people fall into deep holes.

They may feel very very far from making the choice to ask for help, but a choice it remains and it never goes away. Asking for help from God in these situations and opening your heart to the possibility of salvation can be extremely powerful. I've met people with severe, debilitating depression that immediately lifted upon setting foot in a church, never to return. It's a lot more common than you'd think. The religious angle should not be overlooked.

Nobody is so broken that they can't be fixed.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#123

Post by mercer »

guskel wrote: post #112
anxiouspete wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it won't. Anxiety lasts long after the actions have been made and the initial threat eliminated because a lot of people with anxiety disorders will tend to ruminate on their actions and possibly even catastrophize about them, creating to a whole different kind of anxiety that are at times unactionable. This is how people end up with PTSD. I've been trying very hard to break out of this cycle and can tell you firs…

Ultimately, your genes don't care about your happiness or anxiety. They are driven for you to be reproductively successful.

What does that even mean?

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#124

Post by wruza »

vinceguidry wrote: post #122
mercer wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that people aren't engines, but it's also true that people break, and often in ways that are much more difficult to diagnose and fix (or even notice). I think depression, suicide, and much of the time addiction are clear signs that humans can break and not have the strength to 'turn back', at least not with a ton of help.

Help can be asked for. From people or from God. It's when we choose not to ask, choose not to avail ourselves of the many many resources that society has to offer, that people fall into deep holes. They may feel very very far from making the choice to ask for help, but a choice it remains and it never goes away. Asking for help from God in these situations and opening your heart to the possibility of salvation can be…

(Personally, I wouldn’t even consider life if religion was the only way in it. But I don’t want to go deeper on this and will treat it as a regular option here.)

Fact is that ‘choice’ is obviously a part of problem itself, not something you ‘just’ do or do not. Look, you can likewise say that you know people who chose to go to long vacation, get/drop a family, buy something, get happy with it – and they never looked back. Religion is not special in this regard, because you have to choose it before it helps. But some people can’t choose, because they are broken, like an engine.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#125

Post by vinceguidry »

wruza wrote: post #124
vinceguidry wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Help can be asked for. From people or from God. It's when we choose not to ask, choose not to avail ourselves of the many many resources that society has to offer, that people fall into deep holes. They may feel very very far from making the choice to ask for help, but a choice it remains and it never goes away. Asking for help from God in these situations and opening your heart to the possibility of salvation can be…

(Personally, I wouldn’t even consider life if religion was the only way in it. But I don’t want to go deeper on this and will treat it as a regular option here.) Fact is that ‘choice’ is obviously a part of problem itself, not something you ‘just’ do or do not. Look, you can likewise say that you know people who chose to go to long vacation, get/drop a family, buy something, get happy with it – and they never looked…

Having to choose something before it helps you is the whole point of having a choice. Your choices may not always get you to where you want to go, you always have them, and they're always meaningful. To say otherwise is to dehumanise.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#126

Post by mercer »

vinceguidry wrote: post #125
wruza wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Personally, I wouldn’t even consider life if religion was the only way in it. But I don’t want to go deeper on this and will treat it as a regular option here.) Fact is that ‘choice’ is obviously a part of problem itself, not something you ‘just’ do or do not. Look, you can likewise say that you know people who chose to go to long vacation, get/drop a family, buy something, get happy with it – and they never looked…

Having to choose something before it helps you is the whole point of having a choice. Your choices may not always get you to where you want to go, you always have them, and they're always meaningful. To say otherwise is to dehumanise.

I think you're making it too black and white. It's absolutely possible for people to be robbed of choice, sometimes to extreme degrees, both practically and especially psychologically.

If what you're saying is as black and white as you put it, it means cult members, those severely abused in relationships, the psychological tortured, severely addicted, and so on ultimately only have themselves to blame. I'd say that is more dehumanizing than the alternative.

Of course those are extreme examples, and of course in all of those cases some have been able to make choices. But I find it callous and presumptuous to argue that those who didn't choose to be helped somehow just... chose not to choose? didn't try hard enough?

In reality choice is a murky concept. Philosophical debates about free will aside, practically speaking the most generous and human assumption is that depending on all sorts of factors, we have various degrees of choice. And sometimes the best help we can give people is to, with as much respect and wisdom as possible, choose for them.

Going even further, I find the whole idea of independent choice rather murky. I think we have consciousness, and experience a degree of choice, and avoiding learned helplessness is important. But so much of what I consider 'me', is so obviously strongly affected by those around me who shape and shaped me, that I cannot help but conclude that I'm not even remotely a product of my own choices in more ways than I'd like to admit. And that's not even getting into the whole issue of the subconscious playing a significant role in much of what I do!

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#127

Post by vinceguidry »

mercer wrote: post #126
vinceguidry wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having to choose something before it helps you is the whole point of having a choice. Your choices may not always get you to where you want to go, you always have them, and they're always meaningful. To say otherwise is to dehumanise.

I think you're making it too black and white. It's absolutely possible for people to be robbed of choice, sometimes to extreme degrees, both practically and especially psychologically. If what you're saying is as black and white as you put it, it means cult members, those severely abused in relationships, the psychological tortured, severely addicted, and so on ultimately only have themselves to blame. I'd say that i…

Anybody can be robbed of a choice. Nobody can be robbed of all choice.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#128

Post by frockington »

coldtea wrote: post #97
frockington wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think its America's individualism that led to America's roaring success and increase in inequality. If you let people have more individual liberty, some are going to be highly motivated and intelligent and excel while others are going to be lazy and slow. Throw in a few years of selective breeding and you're going to get rising inequality

>* If you let people have more individual liberty, some are going to be highly motivated and intelligent and excel while others are going to be lazy and slow. Throw in a few years of selective breeding and you're going to get rising inequality* I don't think that exhaust the causes. Not to mention it borders on the racist (the lazy self-selected breed of the poor, and the high achievers smart rich). Instead, if you p…

I really don't understand how motivated people preferring to marry motivated people is racist in anyway. Can you elaborate?
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