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Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

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Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#121

Post by ar-jan »

sanderjd wrote: post #84
ar-jan wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False. That's how how was (deliberately?) misinterpreted. But "enforced monogamy" is a term used in e.g. evolutionary biology to describe, basically, just a societal norm of monogamy, maybe enforced by law (polygamy is illegal in most places). No-one's suggesting forcing women to marry someone.

The thing that confuses me about this explanation: we already do that. So it doesn't make much sense as a proposed solution to a supposedly new problem.

It seems plausible to me that the new problem (men without partners) is in part due to weakened social as well as legal norms around marriage, but via divorce rather than polygamy. In my opinion that doesn't mean we should go back to the old ways, but it's worth being aware of the connection.

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#122

Post by vinayms »

Roritharr wrote: post #36
vinayms wrote: post #31

I wonder if there is a user content monetization scheme in porn industry. By that I mean whether all those people, regular people and not porn actors, who voluntarily upload videos where they have sex, bathe, undress etc get paid. I think a large portion of such videos are really private but are leaked by bitter exes, or stolen from lost mobiles etc, but there is a portion that is indeed voluntary. I wonder about tha…

In Germany MyDirtyHobby has been active for a very long time and has, from my pov, spearheaded Online User Content Monetization.

I found only German Wikipedia page and had to translate to English. It says the same Fabian from the article owns this company, didn't expect that! It seems the users are actors and not regular people. The page even uses 'so called amateurs' to describe the users.

I guess people are not yet ready to tread this path of moneymaking. Seems at least some societal mores are valued/feared/respected.

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#123

Post by guskel »

mjfl wrote: post #88

I think pornography is going to be a significant selection pressure on the human race, much more than we realize. We're basically running a global-scale experiment right now. Who knows what's going to happen in 10-15 years, when the first generation with firehoses of firehoses of HD porn just a click away their entire lives, comes of age to marry and have children. I think it's going to effect both men and women pret…

I think social media and dating apps are going to have a much more deleterious effect.

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#124

Post by jrs95 »

lists wrote: post #83
jrs95 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a lot of focus on how this relates to the happiness of men, but generally speaking hookups and pets aren’t an emotionally fulfilling alternative to a family for women, either. This is a worrying trend for everyone. Maybe a minority will be happier, but most are going to be lonelier and most likely more mentally ill. I suppose with legalization of marijuana we might not see a steady increase in alcoholism, but…

>Let’s just give them a UBI check and pretend everything is fine. That has nothing to do with anything being discussed here.

As the other comment under this said, it does in that UBI is taken as being the solution to the social issues largely stemming from technological change. But the problems are much broader than just automation and economics, and an economic solution isn’t going to help with the destabilization of families and offline communities which has really begun to accelerate along with globalization and the internet. In many ways even our politics has been poisoned by some of the negative aspects of this, and we haven’t made a meaningful adjustment in any area of this IMO.

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#125

Post by ikeboy »

>As for beneficial — well, as a good San Franciscan I am of course sex-positive, pro-sex-workers, and pro-porn as a concept … but it would be disingenuous to pretend that Ronson doesn’t show a lot of dubious-trending-negative emergent effects of essentially unlimited free pornography.

That 5 negatives in a row? Impressive.

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#126

Post by cm2012 »

ar-jan wrote: post #103
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No-one's suggesting forcing women to marry someone. The "incel" community frequently calls for the state to provide partners to incels. They point to how in the Netherlands, the disabled have access to sex worker services, subsidized by the state. They claim that their inability to find sexual partners is comparable to a disability, and therefore the state should help. Then, some portion of those incels believe tha…

But this is an extreme and absurd postition from a small group. It's not reasonable that people attribute this to Peterson. I would agree that he could've seen this coming, and could have clarified what he means from the start, rather than after the controversy.

He is purposefully obtuse. This way, hard core incels can believe he means the more extreme options, medium believers believe he means wherever positions they fall on the spectrum, and he has plausible deniability for journalists.

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#127

Post by PKop »

Sharlin wrote: post #59
ovao wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everything is fine in moderation. Mainlining sulfuric acid, for example. Whether porn consumption is fine in moderation is a subject of fair debate. Unfortunately, the science on this is not sufficiently clear.

Anything in moderation is fine basically by definition, including injecting sulfuric acid. Botulinum toxin, the most potent poison known to mankind and lethal at concentrations of a few ng/kg, is used by celebrities to smooth wrinkles. It's all about dosage.

It is important to be clear with our terms and definitions. Certainly we all can agree that we would need to know what a "moderate" amount of porn is right?

Also, the main problem here, and it is a problem with other highly addictive behaviors like drug use, is that simply sticking with a so called "moderate" amount is nearly impossible. It is the whole point of things being addicting, becoming habituated to them, seeing diminishing satisfaction to previous amounts etc etc (for some people at least.. and I would guess this number is quite large).

Watch the video I linked above and see if it resonates with your own experience. Many long term porn users find themselves seeking out more extreme content over time, as well as an increasing quantity of porn viewed over time.

And what about the opportunity cost? What choices and behaviors are given up in the process of receiving sexual satisfaction from porn? Many data sources show a delay in marriage and declining quantity of sexual relationships or volume of sex for young people. Would anyone argue that this might also come with psychological costs in the long term?

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#128

Post by Presquare »

te_chris wrote: post #91
temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #52

The widespread availability of pornography probably does drive home several extra layers of resentment in someone whose personal track record with courting, dating, and sex has been unsatisfying. At a surface level, it seems to demonstrate that sex -- and not just fruits of performances thereof -- is a transaction, and that the attributes that they bring to the marketplace (appearance, aesthetic, attitude, interests,…

> At a surface level, it seems to demonstrate that sex -- and not just fruits of performances thereof -- is a transaction, and that the attributes that they bring to the marketplace (appearance, aesthetic, attitude, interests, personality, attainment) are unpopular among the potential pool. Amateur pornography exacerbates this, because it appears to suggest that sex, and the mood of sexual adventurousness required to…

> Is this more Jordan Peterson, “woe is men” shit?

Acknowledging the existence of a problem affecting men?

> ... then that is their problem, as individuals ...

I agree, but the society needs to acknowledge that it actually IS a genuine problem for these men. We can then encourage the development and adoption of technological solutions, such as sexual VR and sexbots. It might not be the ideal solution for these men, but at least it's a solution (and it puts no responsibility on women to do anything).

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#129

Post by guskel »

PKop wrote: post #120
ozim wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not following that absurdity reduction. In the context of discussion you could compare it with alcohol not sulfuric acid. Alcohol creates concrete bad outcomes when for instance driving. I think there is a lot less people watching porn while driving than driving under influence. Alcohol makes you prone to some kinds of cancers, porn not much. Watching porn is at least order of magnitude safer than drinking alcoh…

I think porn, like opiates and other drugs, are hard to do "just in moderation". There is a powerful dopamine effect that pushes one to consume more and more. But even simply addressing the term moderate, what does that even mean? How much? What is the unintended consequence of getting sexual satisfaction from porn vs real life long term relationship? I would venture that unlimited availability of high quality sexual…

It's placebo.

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#130

Post by brighteyes »

throwawaymath wrote: post #116
ronnier wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s also been a shift due to online and apps that give women an unlimited choice of men while giving the majority of men nearly no choice — the dating world for most men has become a lot more difficult over the last couple of years. I see my male friends really struggle and I see my female friends have unlimited options.

> There’s also been a shift due to online and apps that give women an unlimited choice of men while giving the majority of men nearly no choice How can that be? Why would it be empowering for one gender but not the other? What would the underlying reason be to explain that kind of social phenomenon? > I see my male friends really struggle and I see my female friends have unlimited options. I can counter your anecdata…

>> There’s also been a shift due to online and apps that give women an unlimited choice of men while giving the majority of men nearly no choice

> How can that be? Why would it be empowering for one gender but not the other? What would the underlying reason be to explain that kind of social phenomenon?

Because there are large social differences between how the genders date. Given such differences, a change in how dating is done may favor one gender more than another.

In practice, the most noticeable difference is that men are expected to message women (barring rare exceptions like Bumble). In current online dating, that means women receive a great many messages and can pick between them, while men must send a great many to have a chance at a response.

At least that initial stage of dating has shifted in women's favor in recent years, but as you said, that's not the whole picture and despite all the messages women may have a hard time finding someone they like, depending on what they are looking for.

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