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Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

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Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#121

Post by iblo66 »

sametmax wrote: post #60
mmjaa wrote: post #17

I once worked for a large industrial group in Europe. The kind that has a bit of a piece of every little pie there is - military, transportation, etc. I was pretty happy working there .. until I got a demo from the 'defence' group. They demonstrated the willingness to push the company's technology into heinous, heinous territory. The kind of thing where a drone would be able to follow a single person in a crowd, and…

That's the thing isn't it ? They can't do anything alone. It always amazes me that those big entities exist, because they require such a huge highly educated and skilled human power. What are all those genius at the NSA thinking ? I can't imagine somebody smart enough to work here is not smart enough to understand the consequences of working there. So why are they not quitting ? Social pressure and money are part of…

>So why are they not quitting ?

Because not everybody thinks the way you do. That's why we have elections.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#122

Post by hacker_9 »

flurdy wrote: post #72

I am worried we are not too far away from this becoming a reality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlO2gcs1YvM

Definitely scary, but what happens if enemy states create this technology before us? That's why we need a defence sector that does, in fact, build these tools. If both sides have the technology then a stalemate is reached. Look at nuclear weapons; we can all bomb each other out of existence, and so, no one does. Now look at the countries that lagged behind.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#123

Post by carapace »

whb07 wrote: post #23

I’d like to offer the point of view that if the drones become better and more surgical in their precision, it would reduce civilian casualties. Like it or not the world is full of extremists who would like nothing more than to hurt innocent people. There is no “oh just send the cops and arrest them!” route to take. Shit, just look at the time Osama bin Laden could have been bombed with a tomahawk missile during Clint…

> Would those angry Googlers be against surgically killing Osama?

Probably.

I can't find the quote, but I was reading something about the troubles with the IRA, and the response, that really stuck with me. The author said something like, "When you use lethal force against terrorists it lets them feel that it's fair to use it against you."

We won't defeat violence by violence.

I think we need to challenge ourselves to become less bloodthirsty as we become more technologically capable. (If only to set a good example for our progeny... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Have_No_Mouth,_and_I_Must_Sc...)

Once you make the mental flip it becomes really easy to think up defense systems that work without causing any casualties or deaths at all, not our guys, nor civilians, nor the enemy. And if we just can't live with that, we can always kill them later: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein#Execution

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#124

Post by thirduncle »

option2 wrote: post #2

Kudos to those who is ready to stand for their principles. If you are at G and thinking whether you should resign or not, remembers this - the market for AI talent is super hot. You will immediately find lots of great and challenging AI work pushing humanity forward

You will immediately find lots of great and challenging AI work pushing humanity forward.

They'll find jobs quickly, that's for sure.

But "work pushing humanity forward"? There's precious little of that in any skill sector - not at FAANG salary levels, anyways. The vast bulk of the work that the vast majority of us do is simply about pushing the investor's balance sheets forward - not "humanity".

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#125

Post by carapace »

whb07 wrote: post #83
wyldfire wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like it or not the world is full of extremists who would like nothing more than to hurt innocent people. "Full of"? The world is more peaceful than it's ever been. Extremists do hurt innocent people, and we should not ignore them. But with each choice that we need to make, we should carefully consider pros and cons. Is there really a net benefit here?

Do you read of the sectarian violence that happens in Iraq because Saddam fell? How about increase violence in Mexico after cartel leaders are sent to prison/killed? I agree with you the world is much safer and there is less deaths from military conflict post WWII. I think that is largely due to the massive military power in a largely benevolent country like the U.S. I think if you magically removed the U.S entirely…

I am a doom-and-gloom type myself but, uh:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Natur...

> Pinker presents a large amount of data (and statistical analysis thereof) that, he argues, demonstrate that violence has been in decline over millennia and that the present is probably the most peaceful time in the history of the human species. The decline in violence, he argues, is enormous in magnitude, visible on both long and short time scales, and found in many domains, including military conflict, homicide, genocide, torture, criminal justice, and treatment of children, homosexuals, animals and racial and ethnic minorities. He stresses that "The decline, to be sure, has not been smooth; it has not brought violence down to zero; and it is not guaranteed to continue."

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#126

Post by scythe »

whb07 wrote: post #23

I’d like to offer the point of view that if the drones become better and more surgical in their precision, it would reduce civilian casualties. Like it or not the world is full of extremists who would like nothing more than to hurt innocent people. There is no “oh just send the cops and arrest them!” route to take. Shit, just look at the time Osama bin Laden could have been bombed with a tomahawk missile during Clint…

The problem with dangerous technologies isn't when they're used under the best possible circumstances. It's all of the others. Nuclear bombs can propel spaceships or dig canals, but nobody is protesting that.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#127

Post by BookmarkSaver »

jowiar wrote: post #106
BookmarkSaver wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm unclear as to what the moral difference is. It's more moral to kill someone if they can fight back? Then why are we giving our soldiers tanks? Guns? Fighter jets? Knives? Why not just send them in with their fists. This line of reasoning has no rational basis.

The difference is the cost to yourself, or people you care about, when you want someone dead. Popular sentiment turned against the Vietnam war in the US because Americans were coming home dead, not because of the Vietnamese that we were killing. When we eliminate the cost of war, we make it more likely to enter one, and stay in one.

Yeah, the American populace might not care, but the victims do care, and how upset they are made directly affects all other efforts in that area. Peacemaking and nationbuilding only gets more difficult the more people that have lost family members to the invaders.

If we'd gone into Baghdad WWII style, carpet bombing and all that, we'd probably still be fighting a significant war in Iraq. Or the country would be depopulated. Presumably the appearance of ISIS was largely a reaction to western actions in the region, and its initial strength was proportional to the outrage that could be drummed up. Sure, there are probably asinine military commanders that don't account for this, but it isn't the universal rule.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#128

Post by vokep »

relics443 wrote: post #82
sametmax wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the thing isn't it ? They can't do anything alone. It always amazes me that those big entities exist, because they require such a huge highly educated and skilled human power. What are all those genius at the NSA thinking ? I can't imagine somebody smart enough to work here is not smart enough to understand the consequences of working there. So why are they not quitting ? Social pressure and money are part of…

Have you considered that there are people out there with values that differ from yours? It's not wildly impossible, regardless of what the screaming minority would have you believe. Maybe they don't have a problem with working on such projects, because they agree with their end goal?

They probably understand others have different values. The confusion is, some values seem so self evident that its bewildering anyone with a certain level of intelligence wouldn't realize the same values.

I think the answer might be that they do have the same values, but they have a different model of the world overall, which calls for different ways of achieving those values.

To take this to an extreme, imagine a person fighting for their life against actual criminals threatening vs a person fighting for their life against a random person they think is a shape-shifting alien impostor. Both are internally justified by the same values, one is externally justified by a more correct perception of reality.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#129

Post by archagon »

I wish there was a legally-enforcable version of Douglas Crockford's "Good, not Evil" license. I haven't released any source code that could have military applications yet, but if I ever do, I want to make it 100% clear that it's not to be used for any task related to the killing or injuring of other people. We're in a unique position as programmers where even the tiniest bit of our code can affect thousands or millions of people across the globe, and this terrifies me.

The GPL has already shown us that a license has the power to change culture and behavior (in however small a way). We should be able to extend this approach to other values we hold dear.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#130

Post by VikingCoder »

BookmarkSaver wrote: post #91
dragonwriter wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’d like to offer the point of view that if the drones become better and more surgical in their precision, it would reduce civilian casualties. It would reduce collateral casualties per target attacked, which would make the drones easier to use with looser target selection criteria, which might both increase number of targets attacked and increase the number and ratio of incorrect-target-selection casualties. The l…

Ok... but even accounting for civilian casualties due to increased use of drones, civilian victims (and overall casualties) of US military operations has done nothing but drop as technology improves. This is just throwing in an unfounded qualitative thought, not an actual empirical argument against precision weapons.

> civilian victims (and overall casualties) of US military operations has done nothing but drop as technology improves

If you can definitively tell me how many civilian casualties there were in the Iraq war, we could discuss whether this were true.

"Credible estimates of Iraq War casualties range from 150,000 to 460,000. Other disputed estimates, such as the 2006 Lancet study, and the 2007 Opinion Research Business survey, put the numbers as high as 650,000 and 1.2 million respectively, while body counts, which likely underestimate mortality put the numbers as low as 110,000." [1]

Having a range from 150,000 to 1.2 million makes it kind of hard to discuss, don't you think?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

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