Bitcoin Sees Wall Street Warm to Trading Virtual Currency • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin Sees Wall Street Warm to Trading Virtual Currency

#121

Post by DINKDINK » Wed, May 09, 2018, 4:45 PM UTC

mvindahl wrote: post #118

DINKDINK wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Although price fluctuates, it's more stable than that of bitcoin, thus better suited as store of value. Price fluctuations are not what you care about with a store of value. What you care about is the elasticity of supply with respect to price. If the market price of gold increases, the production of it will increase (though to a lesser degree of other commodities). Bitcoin's supply curve is programmed with time as…

> If the market price of gold increases, the production of it will increase (though to a lesser degree of other commodities). Yet the total amount of gold on this planet is finite, and as the millennia have passed, it has become increasingly expensive to dig it out of the ground. These are the same properties that people laud in bitcoin. > Bitcoin's supply curve is programmed with time as the only input As far as I a…

>the total amount of gold on this planet is finite You confuse yourself with two qualities: Scarcity and Controlled Supply. The two are not the same.

>> Bitcoin's supply curve is programmed with time as the only input

>As far as I am informed, bitcoin mining farms also tend to be connected to the power grid.

The electric grid has no influence on the supply curve of Bitcoin. Do you accept the fact that time is the only input for the supply function? It does not matter if there is one miner producing bitcoin or if bitcoin's price is $1 or $1MM dollars the same amount of bitcoins are produced.

>Limited supply is by no means unique to bitcoin.

Again seems like you completely misunderstand the difference between scarcity (limited supply) and controlled supply. There's a finite amount of water on the planet (because there's a finite amount of hydrogen and oxygen on Earth) too, does that mean water would make for good money? No because water is easily synthesized from other elements. It has a very multivariable supply function.

Re: Bitcoin Sees Wall Street Warm to Trading Virtual Currency

#122

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, May 09, 2018, 4:53 PM UTC

DINKDINK wrote: post #121

mvindahl wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the market price of gold increases, the production of it will increase (though to a lesser degree of other commodities). Yet the total amount of gold on this planet is finite, and as the millennia have passed, it has become increasingly expensive to dig it out of the ground. These are the same properties that people laud in bitcoin. > Bitcoin's supply curve is programmed with time as the only input As far as I a…

>the total amount of gold on this planet is finite You confuse yourself with two qualities: Scarcity and Controlled Supply. The two are not the same. >> Bitcoin's supply curve is programmed with time as the only input >As far as I am informed, bitcoin mining farms also tend to be connected to the power grid. The electric grid has no influence on the supply curve of Bitcoin. Do you accept the fact that time is the onl…

> The electric grid has no influence on the supply curve of Bitcoin.

Difficulty readjustment mitigates long term influence of electriciry market on Bitcoin supply curve, but doesn't prevent the current prices from short-term influences

> Do you accept the fact that time is the only input for the supply function?

No.

> It does not matter if there is one miner producing bitcoin or if bitcoin's price is $1 or $1MM dollars the same amount of bitcoins are produced.

First, this isn't true over short terms, though difficulty adjustment means it should be approximately true with a steady state allocation of mining resources over the long term.

Second, though, supply isn't production caapcity, it's the mapping of price to number of units sold.

Re: Bitcoin Sees Wall Street Warm to Trading Virtual Currency

#123

Post by notahacker » Wed, May 09, 2018, 9:44 PM UTC

hndamien wrote: post #116

notahacker wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think when you have a technology which creates the same amount of power demand as all the people and industry in Peru, and rewards people for locating this demand in the part of the world with the cheapest dirtiest coal fired power and zero energy tax, it's disingenuous in the extreme to pretend it's not a huge part of the problem because hypothetical global carbon taxes might solve wider problems. Crypto mining is…

I think you will need a citation for "one of the chief motivating factors behind crypto currency adoption has the idea of being able to avoid things like carbon taxes and energy quotas". The chief motivating factor is a fair economic system. By your logic anything energy intensive industry should be stopped because of the pollution it causes. Say goodbye to the Steel industry, Aluminium industry, Chemical industry, T…

You're actually asking for citations for the idea that the theoretical point of Bitcoin is reducing government control of money and a large practical part of the BTC economy is regulatory evasion?!

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the steel industry, aluminium industry, chemical industry, textile industry and copper industry have done more for humanity than Bitcoin. Use less electricity though...

YMMV, but I think it is more pragmatic, sensible, likely and beneficial to stop shitting on people's lawns than to evangelise wider adoption of a system for producing more shit, funnelling it more efficiently to lawns less likely to attract the attention of shit regulators, whilst insisting the real problem is that the lack of a global shit tax. (I'd have used a less fecal analogy like hazardous waste and clandestine disposal systems but that's a little too close to stuff I'm actually working on making more difficult in the day job!)

Re: Bitcoin Sees Wall Street Warm to Trading Virtual Currency

#124

Post by DINKDINK » Wed, May 09, 2018, 11:45 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #122

DINKDINK wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the total amount of gold on this planet is finite You confuse yourself with two qualities: Scarcity and Controlled Supply. The two are not the same. >> Bitcoin's supply curve is programmed with time as the only input >As far as I am informed, bitcoin mining farms also tend to be connected to the power grid. The electric grid has no influence on the supply curve of Bitcoin. Do you accept the fact that time is the onl…

> The electric grid has no influence on the supply curve of Bitcoin. Difficulty readjustment mitigates long term influence of electriciry market on Bitcoin supply curve, but doesn't prevent the current prices from short-term influences > Do you accept the fact that time is the only input for the supply function? No. > It does not matter if there is one miner producing bitcoin or if bitcoin's price is $1 or $1MM dolla…

>> Do you accept the fact that time is the only input for the supply function?

>No.

Do you accept that the following line is nominally linear? https://blockchain.info/charts/total-bitcoins?timespan=1year

If you do, then you must accept that time is the only input to the supply function.

If you don't, supply a source to show what variable you think is correlated to the change in bitcoin. The data indicates, time alone.

Re: Bitcoin Sees Wall Street Warm to Trading Virtual Currency

#125

Post by hndamien » Thu, May 10, 2018, 1:53 AM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #123

hndamien wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you will need a citation for "one of the chief motivating factors behind crypto currency adoption has the idea of being able to avoid things like carbon taxes and energy quotas". The chief motivating factor is a fair economic system. By your logic anything energy intensive industry should be stopped because of the pollution it causes. Say goodbye to the Steel industry, Aluminium industry, Chemical industry, T…

You're actually asking for citations for the idea that the theoretical point of Bitcoin is reducing government control of money and a large practical part of the BTC economy is regulatory evasion?! I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the steel industry, aluminium industry, chemical industry, textile industry and copper industry have done more for humanity than Bitcoin. Use less electricity though... YMMV, but…

"citation for "one of the chief motivating factors behind crypto currency adoption has the idea of being able to avoid things like carbon taxes and energy quotas"."

!=

"citations for the idea that the theoretical point of Bitcoin is reducing government control of money and a large practical part of the BTC economy is regulatory evasion?!"

Re: Bitcoin Sees Wall Street Warm to Trading Virtual Currency

#126

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, May 10, 2018, 1:59 AM UTC

DINKDINK wrote: post #124

dragonwriter wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The electric grid has no influence on the supply curve of Bitcoin. Difficulty readjustment mitigates long term influence of electriciry market on Bitcoin supply curve, but doesn't prevent the current prices from short-term influences > Do you accept the fact that time is the only input for the supply function? No. > It does not matter if there is one miner producing bitcoin or if bitcoin's price is $1 or $1MM dolla…

>> Do you accept the fact that time is the only input for the supply function? >No. Do you accept that the following line is nominally linear? https://blockchain.info/charts/total-bitcoins?timespan=1year If you do, then you must accept that time is the only input to the supply function. If you don't, supply a source to show what variable you think is correlated to the change in bitcoin. The data indicates, time alone…

> Do you accept that the following line is nominally linear?

> If you do, then you must accept that time is the only input to the supply function.

Er, no, even assuming the omitted x-axis is linear, I don't. The other inputs being relatively constant or having variation which mostly cancelled out each other's effects over a one year period is indistinguishable, on such a chart, from time being the only input. (Plus, the implicit function to which time would hypothetically be the only input isn't a supply function, which is a mapping from price to quantity people are willing to sell.)

Re: Bitcoin Sees Wall Street Warm to Trading Virtual Currency

#127

Post by notahacker » Thu, May 10, 2018, 6:54 AM UTC

hndamien wrote: post #125

notahacker wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're actually asking for citations for the idea that the theoretical point of Bitcoin is reducing government control of money and a large practical part of the BTC economy is regulatory evasion?! I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the steel industry, aluminium industry, chemical industry, textile industry and copper industry have done more for humanity than Bitcoin. Use less electricity though... YMMV, but…

"citation for "one of the chief motivating factors behind crypto currency adoption has the idea of being able to avoid things like carbon taxes and energy quotas"." != "citations for the idea that the theoretical point of Bitcoin is reducing government control of money and a large practical part of the BTC economy is regulatory evasion?!"

If you lack either the intellectual honesty to admit that one of the few reasons people pay for things in Bitcoin is to evade local regulations or the intellectual capacity to grasp the linkage between avoiding regulations and avoiding taxes and quotas on carbon, you probably shouldn't be evangelising about "fairer financial systems"...

Re: Bitcoin Sees Wall Street Warm to Trading Virtual Currency

#128

Post by hndamien » Thu, May 10, 2018, 11:08 AM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #127

hndamien wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"citation for "one of the chief motivating factors behind crypto currency adoption has the idea of being able to avoid things like carbon taxes and energy quotas"." != "citations for the idea that the theoretical point of Bitcoin is reducing government control of money and a large practical part of the BTC economy is regulatory evasion?!"

If you lack either the intellectual honesty to admit that one of the few reasons people pay for things in Bitcoin is to evade local regulations or the intellectual capacity to grasp the linkage between avoiding regulations and avoiding taxes and quotas on carbon, you probably shouldn't be evangelising about "fairer financial systems"...

So no citation for your assertion then. Got it.

Re: Bitcoin Sees Wall Street Warm to Trading Virtual Currency

#129

Post by notahacker » Thu, May 10, 2018, 11:00 PM UTC

hndamien wrote: post #128

notahacker wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you lack either the intellectual honesty to admit that one of the few reasons people pay for things in Bitcoin is to evade local regulations or the intellectual capacity to grasp the linkage between avoiding regulations and avoiding taxes and quotas on carbon, you probably shouldn't be evangelising about "fairer financial systems"...

So no citation for your assertion then. Got it.

Nah, you're right, there's no articles at all on the internet about cryptocurrency and tax evasion[1]. The IRS fought court orders to get Coinbase transaction details after discovering only a few hundred Americans had reported BTC gains[2] because nobody else made any profits trading crypto. Directors of the Bitcoin foundation are building Bitcoin hubs in Puerto Rico[3] because they like hurricane damage, not to avoid any obligation to pay taxes on their capital gains.

Sure they really want a fairer economy and they'll totally ensure they locate their mining somewhere they can pay carbon taxes.

I'm bored. Do you want me to find a citation for the Pope's religion next?

[1]http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bitcoin+tax+evasion [2]https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/30/bitcoin-investors-beware-the... [3]https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/02/technology/cryptocurrency...