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I am leaving llvm

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Re: I am leaving llvm

#121

Post by pulisse »

microcolonel wrote: post #115
pulisse wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lattner's message, in its entirety, was: This list is for technical compiler and tools discussions, lets not turn a thread about Rafael’s personal decision into a rant about CoC’s which we have been through before. If you’d like to have a productive discussion about CoC topics, then please start a new thread and use a respectful and productive tone. If you're being downvoted for a tendentious characterization of the…

> ...a rant about CoC’s which we have been through before. I mean, seems like Dr. Lattner (with all due respect) wants to suppress discussion of the CoC, despite the fact that discussion of the CoC is warranted and apparently crucial to retaining talent. The CoC has a direct effect on this very mailing list, so it seems like it would be up for discussion there, if anywhere.

He explicitly--quoted right there in the comment you're responding to--invited a thread dedicated to discussion of the CoC. How from that do you infer that he's trying to suppress discussion of the topic?

Re: I am leaving llvm

#122

Post by coldacid »

GiorgioG wrote: post #94
peterashford wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Monoculture doesn't foster a range of ideas. I work in games where having more women is great - we produce products that work better for more people and I find it balances out company culture

I've worked in companies where that have been predominantly white males and companies that are not - I've noticed ZERO difference in outcomes between the two. The fact of the matter is there are more white males that pursue computer science than women, minorities, etc. That doesn't make all of us professional white males raging racists/sexists. 90% of nurses are women. Why don't these social justice warriors blow up…

Hell, where are the social justice warriors trying to get more women to work as plumbers, construction workers, or garbage collectors? Let's see more women working in mines, while we're at it!

Re: I am leaving llvm

#123

Post by joelaw »

rhapsodic wrote: post #101
zimpenfish wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the implication that it is pernicious behavior on the part of white males that is responsible for this state of affairs. Historically, it has been, yes. Even today, there are pockets of white males who are virulently against anyone but them having access to their little clubhouses (cf GG for one prime example.)

>Historically, it has been, yes. Not in the decades I have been observing this industry through my participation in it. In my observation, these past few decades the efforts to increase female and minority employment have far outweighed the rare instances of discrimination I've seen. > Even today, there are pockets of white males who are virulently against anyone but them having access to their little clubhouses (cf…

It sounds like he's talking about GamerGate. Which, since they followed the old tech idea of race and gender not even being brought up in their ranks, indicates his opinion on most matters social justice.

Re: I am leaving llvm

#124

Post by sanxiyn »

eptcyka wrote: post #105
imbokodo wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Damore and Eich...THAT's why they're EXCLUDING people for their political views The actual exclusion can be seen by walking around the engineering departments of FAANG companies (or Market Street startups) and seeing virtually all male, white or Asian faces. One in eight Americans are black - where are they? That is the real exclusion. Damore was fired for effectively boasting about this exclusion. It's illustrativ…

Maybe I'm absolutely wrong, but as far as I could tell, Damore's memo did not mention race at all.

You are wrong. Race is mentioned multiple times in Damore's memo, such as "At Google, we talk so much about unconscious bias as it applies to race and gender, but we rarely discuss our moral biases", etc.

Re: I am leaving llvm

#125

Post by sanxiyn »

mylons wrote: post #120
stillkicking wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because a code of conduct is just a foot in the door. It provides a pretense for people to seize power and start policing others in the community. That would be only one objection, but as always happens, the rules are not actually what is written, as the OP rightly pointed out. Another recent example was the Rod Vagg drama in node.js... he became the target of ire for tweeting an article about Neurodiversity and Free…

the person you're referencing to with the RAMPANT misandry on their twitter feed is just intolerable and tiring.

If so, rvagg should be criticized for those tweets, not for a reasonable article on neurodiversity.

Re: I am leaving llvm

#126

Post by sanxiyn »

morvita wrote: post #16
GiorgioG wrote: post #6

These social justice warriors may seem well-meaning, but ultimately they are parasites. Their mission is never-ending and ultimately they overreach and this is the result. I just want to work with smart people. I don't care what gender they associate themselves with, what color they are, whether there's an equal distribution of any of these characteristics in my department. I just want to do my job and learn from sma…

I, too, dream of a world where I can work with smart people without regard to their race, sexuality, gender, whatever, but it is naive to think that we are already living in that world. Like it or not, the entire system is stacked against minorities in ways that aren't even obvious or noticeable from a position of privilege. I work as an engineer in an office of 120 people in the East Bay. There are three black peopl…

> If we assume that there are no racial differences in technical ability, then the demographics of my office should roughly mirror the demographics of the surrounding community.

This is a big assumption. It may be true, but you are asserting it without evidence. Demographics of NBA do not mirror demographics of USA.

Re: I am leaving llvm

#127

Post by sgift »

sanxiyn wrote: post #126
morvita wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, too, dream of a world where I can work with smart people without regard to their race, sexuality, gender, whatever, but it is naive to think that we are already living in that world. Like it or not, the entire system is stacked against minorities in ways that aren't even obvious or noticeable from a position of privilege. I work as an engineer in an office of 120 people in the East Bay. There are three black peopl…

> If we assume that there are no racial differences in technical ability, then the demographics of my office should roughly mirror the demographics of the surrounding community. This is a big assumption. It may be true, but you are asserting it without evidence. Demographics of NBA do not mirror demographics of USA.

It's the reasonable default assumption as long as you have no evidence for the opposite (i.e. that white people have racial attributes making them better at tech / non-white people have racial attributes making them worse). Can you provide evidence for the opposite?

Re: I am leaving llvm

#128

Post by zimpenfish »

rhapsodic wrote: post #101
zimpenfish wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the implication that it is pernicious behavior on the part of white males that is responsible for this state of affairs. Historically, it has been, yes. Even today, there are pockets of white males who are virulently against anyone but them having access to their little clubhouses (cf GG for one prime example.)

>Historically, it has been, yes. Not in the decades I have been observing this industry through my participation in it. In my observation, these past few decades the efforts to increase female and minority employment have far outweighed the rare instances of discrimination I've seen. > Even today, there are pockets of white males who are virulently against anyone but them having access to their little clubhouses (cf…

> Not in the decades I have been observing this industry through my participation in it.

Also decades but I have observed plenty of discrimination.

> have far outweighed the rare instances of discrimination I've seen.

Might it be possible that you're not seeing the less explicit forms of discrimination? I know I certainly wasn't until people highlighted them.

Re: I am leaving llvm

#129

Post by aivarsk »

malvosenior wrote: post #23
mcintyre1994 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would indeed be objectionable! For someone unfamiliar with that history, can you give a few projects I should read up on to find out more?

Yes, you should read up on the Contributor Covenant. The creator of which is notorious for aggressively pushing to get the CoC included into projects and then harassing developers. Here's one of the more famous examples: https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 Also see how the creator tried to force this CoC into Ruby: https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/12004

They should try to force this CoC into Linux kernel :-D

Re: I am leaving llvm

#130

Post by kgabis »

sgift wrote: post #127
sanxiyn wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we assume that there are no racial differences in technical ability, then the demographics of my office should roughly mirror the demographics of the surrounding community. This is a big assumption. It may be true, but you are asserting it without evidence. Demographics of NBA do not mirror demographics of USA.

It's the reasonable default assumption as long as you have no evidence for the opposite (i.e. that white people have racial attributes making them better at tech / non-white people have racial attributes making them worse). Can you provide evidence for the opposite?

You're the one making the assumption so you should back it up with some evidence (burden of proof).
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