Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#121

Post by emodendroket » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 11:21 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #114

emodendroket wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that was the object, why the sustained effort to imitate the official packaging, rather than just honestly admitting the discs were reproductions? Is that really the issue, when part of the defense of this guy made in the linked article is that the actual disc content was available for download for free from MS?

you believe sending a person to a prison for over a year where there is a high likely hood they will be raped, beaten and abused is the proper punishment for "imitation of the official packaging" you believe that giving a person a felony conviction where by they will be denied many rights, barred from renting property, be unable to obtain many jobs, and for the rest of their lives have their economic and social oppor…

Yikes, there is a rapid escalation in claims. Certainly we could argue about whether the length of the sentence is appropriate. Contrary to what you have written, I don't think anyone, even violent criminals, should be subject to prison rape, beatings, or abuse, nor do I think ex-convicts of any stripe should be denied housing, and I think it is absolutely a black mark on this country's justice system that such a thing is winked at. But let's not only trot out that defense when we're looking at white-collar criminals who remind us of ourselves and look the other way for others. The fact remains, though, that this guy was engaged in a for-profit criminal enterprise, and his defenders do not seem to even want to acknowledge that.

What's the harm? It's simple. It's fraud. He led people to believe they were buying one thing when they were buying another. It's no different than slapping Chiquita labels on different bananas and then turning around and saying "what's the problem, they were good bananas" when you're caught.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#122

Post by syshum » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 11:55 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #121

syshum wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you believe sending a person to a prison for over a year where there is a high likely hood they will be raped, beaten and abused is the proper punishment for "imitation of the official packaging" you believe that giving a person a felony conviction where by they will be denied many rights, barred from renting property, be unable to obtain many jobs, and for the rest of their lives have their economic and social oppor…

Yikes, there is a rapid escalation in claims. Certainly we could argue about whether the length of the sentence is appropriate. Contrary to what you have written, I don't think anyone , even violent criminals, should be subject to prison rape, beatings, or abuse, nor do I think ex-convicts of any stripe should be denied housing, and I think it is absolutely a black mark on this country's justice system that such a th…

>> It's no different than slapping Chiquita labels on different bananas and then turning around and saying "what's the problem, they were good bananas" when you're caught.

It is very different, Chiquita primary business is selling banana's

Dell Business is not selling Dell Restore Discs.. It is selling the computers for which the Restore Discs are for

If you can see the difference in these things well I really do not know where to go from here.

>> But let's not only trot out that defense when we're looking at white-collar criminals who remind us of ourselves and look the other way for others.

You know nothing about my advocacy or when I do or do not "trot out that defense". I am almost universally Anti-Statism, being a Libertarian I talk about and advocate against all manner of government abuse, most of which is more massive (like police murdering people) than this.

Simply because I am also using it here does not mean I only talk about it for " white-collar criminals" nor do those other abuses negate this abuse. If that is your metric then no one should ever complain about the US Government at all since NK is worse... It is bullshit argument

> The fact remains, though, that this guy was engaged in a for-profit criminal enterprise, and his defenders do not seem to even want to acknowledge that.

I dont believe it should be considered a criminal enterprise.

I bet however you largely support the current Copyright and Patent laws, I do not, most of this persons supporters do not either. That is the disconnect I believe. People that support the concept of "intellectual Property" want to throw the book at this guy, people that generally oppose the concept of government created monopolies on ideas aka intellectual privilege do not believe this guy did anything wrong.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#123

Post by tripletao » Tue, May 01, 2018, 12:02 AM UTC

syshum wrote: post #98

tripletao wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a reference for this? Best I could find is: https://www.msregrefurb.com/RRPSite/Information/LicensingGui... I think it says the OEM license remains valid after recycling as long as the recovery media accompany the computer (or are obtained from the OEM), but doesn't otherwise? So by that argument, he really does need the new license? I'd read the contract if I knew which one applied (since that's what act…

Recovery Media has not been shipped with new systems in almost a decade now. At best there is a Recovery partition that consumer can use to create Recovery Disk themselves before the system fails. Obtaining Recovery Media from places like Dell and Lenovo is a Pain in the ass unless you are the original purchaser of the system of an official retailer and you only want 1 Copy of the Media. The problem is most systems o…

> So Recylers get thousands of systems annually that are perfectly serviceable, fully licensed with windows but they can not use that license because there is no restore CD and they have no way to obtain one. Thus MS does them a "favor" buy selling them a new license for $25 instead of just providing a way for them to restore the system

Then why don't the recyclers just get one restore CD and make copies? They could save almost $25/system....

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#124

Post by emodendroket » Tue, May 01, 2018, 12:28 AM UTC

syshum wrote: post #122

emodendroket wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yikes, there is a rapid escalation in claims. Certainly we could argue about whether the length of the sentence is appropriate. Contrary to what you have written, I don't think anyone , even violent criminals, should be subject to prison rape, beatings, or abuse, nor do I think ex-convicts of any stripe should be denied housing, and I think it is absolutely a black mark on this country's justice system that such a th…

>> It's no different than slapping Chiquita labels on different bananas and then turning around and saying "what's the problem, they were good bananas" when you're caught. It is very different, Chiquita primary business is selling banana's Dell Business is not selling Dell Restore Discs.. It is selling the computers for which the Restore Discs are for If you can see the difference in these things well I really do not…

It goes beyond a question of intellectual property to knowingly selling customers something other than what they believe they are buying. To take another example, you could argue, I think probably correctly, that there is no sensible reason to avoid eating genetically-modified foods. But I do not think it would be ethical or that it should be legal to put a label on your food that says "NO GMOS" when, in fact, you are using GMOs. The argument here seems to be the same -- it should be OK because the result was the same, if you bought the counterfeit disc and installed it, as if you got what you thought you were buying. I don't think that's correct.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#125

Post by otakucode » Wed, May 02, 2018, 12:41 AM UTC

mchannon wrote: post #97

otakucode wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Louis Rossman did an interview with Lundgren on his YouTube Channel. Lundgren is no hero. He was not just burning some recovery CDs. He was actively seeking to deceive, actively telling his customers (other PC recyclers) that he was selling them legitimate recovery CDs manufactured by Dell, Lenovo, etc. Microsoft did not go to the government. The government went to Microsoft. It called Microsoft people as expert witn…

+1 for mentioning the interview, but a link would've been helpful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7hnVYMoctM Microsoft did claim they were worth $20, according to Gov. Exhibit 17. Most of your argument is thus false. District and appellate judges don't always make the right decisions, but that's what rehearings and the Supreme Court are for.

Exhibit 17 does not contain any claim by Microsoft that the recovery discs were worth $20. I just re-checked it to see. They said, as is the case, that the closest item they sell is the software with the license. The court determined the license to be irrelevant (they are wrong about that of course but that changes nothing about what Microsoft claimed).

Also, no, it does not invalidate any other statement as the other statements were not about Microsofts claims about the value of the discs. Even if I was completely and totally wrong on that point, it would not have the slightest relevance to any other claim or point not based on that point. That's just not how argument works. A person can say a wrong thing and then a right thing and the wrong one doesn't invalidate the other.

Lundgren has no intention to continue the appeals process. He claims that his counsel tells him that it wouldn't be fruitful. I personally think he could win an appeal insofar as his sentencing goes, but it would not change his sentencing much at all. He certainly wouldn't be walking free after having engaged in conspiracy and trafficking in counterfeit goods. The sentence he received was already below the recommended guideline the court follows derived from the value of the counterfeited goods.