The Worst U.S. Maritime Disaster in Decades • Hacker News Board

Re: The Worst U.S. Maritime Disaster in Decades

#121

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 8:40 AM UTC

korethr wrote: post #50

clon wrote: post #13

> She called Davidson on the house phone and told him that the hurricane was now a Category 3. He knew that already. She proposed the escape route to the south and a smooth sail on to San Juan. He rejected her suggestion. I wonder if in the maritime world there is the equivalent of CRM (Cockpit Resource Management), as in aviation. Too many lives were lost due to 1st officer never taking over command when the error i…

One of my takeaways from the article is that the captain's confidence and willingness to do the right thing had been shaken after he'd been burned the last time he'd refused unsafe orders. I'm wondering if the 1st officer similarly faced bad consequences for doing the right thing and taking command -- mutiny charges are still a thing, aren't they?

[deleted]

Re: The Worst U.S. Maritime Disaster in Decades

#122

Post by oldmariner » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 8:59 AM UTC

korethr wrote: post #50

clon wrote: post #13

> She called Davidson on the house phone and told him that the hurricane was now a Category 3. He knew that already. She proposed the escape route to the south and a smooth sail on to San Juan. He rejected her suggestion. I wonder if in the maritime world there is the equivalent of CRM (Cockpit Resource Management), as in aviation. Too many lives were lost due to 1st officer never taking over command when the error i…

One of my takeaways from the article is that the captain's confidence and willingness to do the right thing had been shaken after he'd been burned the last time he'd refused unsafe orders. I'm wondering if the 1st officer similarly faced bad consequences for doing the right thing and taking command -- mutiny charges are still a thing, aren't they?

"One of my takeaways from the article is that the captain's confidence and willingness to do the right thing had been shaken after he'd been burned the last time he'd refused unsafe orders."

This is just one serious problem in the maritime industry that I have first-hand knowledge of.

I loved sailing, but I don't do it any more because it's not the work that's dangerous, it's the other people.

Re: The Worst U.S. Maritime Disaster in Decades

#123

Post by stock_toaster » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 9:08 AM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #101

Declanomous wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should at least place a large warning stating that the data is not safe to use for navigational purposes.

I'm sort of surprised that data from a source like that is used. Have you ever seen the weather data that airline captains use? It looks like this: KORD 050251Z 26006KT 10SM SCT110 M02/M09 A3019 RMK AO2 SLP232 T10171089 53009 That's the current weather conditions for Chicago O'Hare. Looks like gibberish to you and me but airline captains know what it means and they know how old the observation is. Captain has ultimat…

Interesting! Did some searching and found this[1] which outlines the parts of a reading.

[1]: https://www.wunderground.com/metarFAQ.asp

Re: The Worst U.S. Maritime Disaster in Decades

#124

Post by Eurongreyjoy » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 9:15 AM UTC

oldmariner wrote: post #122

korethr wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my takeaways from the article is that the captain's confidence and willingness to do the right thing had been shaken after he'd been burned the last time he'd refused unsafe orders. I'm wondering if the 1st officer similarly faced bad consequences for doing the right thing and taking command -- mutiny charges are still a thing, aren't they?

"One of my takeaways from the article is that the captain's confidence and willingness to do the right thing had been shaken after he'd been burned the last time he'd refused unsafe orders." This is just one serious problem in the maritime industry that I have first-hand knowledge of. I loved sailing, but I don't do it any more because it's not the work that's dangerous, it's the other people.

Tell me about it. You'd think the ocean is a big enough place to avoid accidents, but somehow 16 year olds skippering their parents boats find their way into the path of my Whaler while I quietly sit fishing.

Re: The Worst U.S. Maritime Disaster in Decades

#125

Post by michaelt » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 9:18 AM UTC

Latteland wrote: post #49

gsnedders wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the fatal accident rate for, e.g., professional drivers compare with the average worker? I imagine crewing a ship is more dangerous, but humans are famously bad at evaluating risk.

So being crew on a merchant ship is more dangerous that cops (by far), and probably more dangerous on say a 10 year timeframe than being in the military (since you probably aren't at war that much over 10 years, unless you are unlucky).

For the British merchant fleet, 19.5 deaths per 100,000 seafarer-years [1].

For American loggers, 90 deaths per 100,000 worker-years [2] making it the most dangerous job.

For American taxi drivers, ~18 deaths (of which 8 are murders) per 100,000 full-time-worker-years [2]. Making taxi driver the most murdered profession - and it was worse around 2000, when the rate was an eye-watering 23.7 murders.

As you say, policing isn't the most dangerous profession; the rate there is 11 deaths of which 3.5 are murders.

[1] https://academic.oup.com/occmed/article/64/4/259/1464740 [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/01/28/chart...

Re: The Worst U.S. Maritime Disaster in Decades

#126

Post by dredmorbius » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 9:32 AM UTC

chrisweekly wrote: post #87

1. FYI the article is new but the disaster described happened on October 1, 2015. 2. I was astonished at this: > "It has been reported that a major merchant ship goes down somewhere in the world every two or three days; most are ships sailing under flags of convenience, with underpaid crews and poor safety records."

The shipwreck rate staggerred me when I ran across it a few years back.

It's the key reason I don't find commercial marine nuclear propulsion viable.

Re: The Worst U.S. Maritime Disaster in Decades

#127

Post by oldmariner » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 9:32 AM UTC

foobarbazetc wrote: post #119

What’s really interesting about this is the sort of horror film aspect to these situations where everyone gets a bad feeling of impending doom but they push forward anyway. People should trust that instinct. Takes a lot of effort to pull away from the brink, but you should do it. 100% of the time.

Some don't recognize the situation is bad because of ignorance.

Some don't pull back because of cowardice.

The rest keep on going because of the sense of adventure. It makes you feel alive.

Re: The Worst U.S. Maritime Disaster in Decades

#128

Post by oldmariner » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 9:39 AM UTC

dwighttk wrote: post #72

tomn wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

captain: "Can i play it safe on the way back?" boss: "Yes, authorized." NTSB: "What do you mean authorized? It's not your decision. Did the captain ask you if he could go the safe way on the way out?"

I guess I still don't quite understand the importance of "authorized" since the captain wrote: >Question I would like to transit the Old Bahama Channel on our return northbound leg He was clearly asking, not informing.

As another said, the Captain didn't specify what the question was.

Saying "authorized" was a big mistake. I work somewhere now where I have to be careful using that word because it implies you're taking on the responsibility, and if something goes wrong through no fault of your own, the blame now lies on you where as it wouldn't have if you just simply acknowledged receipt of the question/statement.

Stupid, but that's the world we live in.

Re: The Worst U.S. Maritime Disaster in Decades

#129

Post by AnatMl2 » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 10:06 AM UTC

foobarbazetc wrote: post #119

What’s really interesting about this is the sort of horror film aspect to these situations where everyone gets a bad feeling of impending doom but they push forward anyway. People should trust that instinct. Takes a lot of effort to pull away from the brink, but you should do it. 100% of the time.

Agreed. Although, by changing the rout a couple of times they were pretty much following their instincts [alongside the weather reports].

Re: The Worst U.S. Maritime Disaster in Decades

#130

Post by dkresge » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 11:16 AM UTC

golergka wrote: post #117

Declanomous wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should at least place a large warning stating that the data is not safe to use for navigational purposes.

If you did this warnings, you would want to be on the safe side. So, there would be a lot of false positives. But, as a result, your customers would get accustomed to it and don't treat them seriously. There's no easy fixes here.

How about placing a clear date/time stamp on the chart?