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Cleaning sprays have an impact on lung health comparable to cigarettes

independent.co.uk

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Re: Cleaning sprays have an impact on lung health comparable to cigarettes

#121

Post by nextos »

innagadadavida wrote: post #118
nextos wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use a Kärcher SC3 steam cleaner. It's cheap (~€100) and pretty good. Even the SC2 is decent. As an alternative, Polti high-end ones are excellent. They invented domestic steamers, and I've seen some used at hospitals. The have accessories for e.g. steaming your mattress to get rid of dust mites. I use a Miele C3 Silence vacuum cleaner. It's the cheapest (~€220) Miele vacuum cleaner that has top (A class in EU) filt…

Do the steam cleaners work with hard water? Our area has really hard water and I need to use a reverse osmosis filter even for our humidifier otherwise the scaling is really bad and accumulates quickly.

The SC3 comes with a cartridge that claims to soften water and reduce issues.

In any case, they use little water. Like 1 tank for 90 m^2. You can always buy distilled water, or use water from your osmosis filter.

Re: Cleaning sprays have an impact on lung health comparable to cigarettes

#122

Post by Broken_Hippo »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #36
kevindqc wrote: post #4

This is why I never clean.

The only winning move is to just not let dirt happen to begin with.

You've stopped shedding skin, opening windows and doors, and stopped cooking? That's pretty amazing.

Re: Cleaning sprays have an impact on lung health comparable to cigarettes

#123

Post by vymague »

nextos wrote: post #117
vymague wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder, what's your opinion about DIY air filters? Like a box fan plus a furnace filter. Both are not common in Europe, but you could get a different type of fan, and affordable HEPA filters from aliexpress.

Good air filters are complex, not just an HEPA filter, but a series of stages. And an active carbon filter for chemicals.

But I thought it has been shown putting simple furnace filter on a fan is good enough. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH5APw_SLUU

Are you talking about other filters to filter the larger particles, and carbon filters? Because aliexpress sell them too.

Re: Cleaning sprays have an impact on lung health comparable to cigarettes

#124

Post by nonbel »

refurb wrote: post #84
st26 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you inhale enough to irritate your lungs? Sure. But it's not going to cancer or something. I think we're assuming here that it's something like asbestos lung cancer. Asbestos is not a poison, just an irritant. Presumably nobody is getting poisoned here; chronic irritation is triggering problems.

Asbestos is more than an irritant. The toxicity and resulting cancer is due to the small particle size and the iron atoms in the asbestos that catalyze the formation of reactive oxygen species that damage the cell and can cause mutations. I guess my point is that there is no mechanism by which ammonia could cause something like this. It's a simple molecule that pretty much causes irritation due to it's alkaline prope…

If you believe cancer is due to the accumulation of mutations, and the ammonia/whatever is killing cells (thus increasing the turnover), then it will increase the chances of cancer simply because there are more divisions in the tissue.

This follows pretty simply from the idea that cancer is caused by accumulating mutations (which you seem to believe), so why do you say "no mechanism"?

Re: Cleaning sprays have an impact on lung health comparable to cigarettes

#126

Post by opencl »

nextos wrote: post #117
vymague wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder, what's your opinion about DIY air filters? Like a box fan plus a furnace filter. Both are not common in Europe, but you could get a different type of fan, and affordable HEPA filters from aliexpress.

Good air filters are complex, not just an HEPA filter, but a series of stages. And an active carbon filter for chemicals.

What are these complex things they do that are anything but shoving air through a filter with a fan? How do they justify costing hundreds more than taping a HEPA filter+carbon filter to a fan yourself?

The product page for the model recommended in that wirecutter article even has a cutaway view, showing that it's just a HEPA filter + carbon filter + fan.

Re: Cleaning sprays have an impact on lung health comparable to cigarettes

#127

Post by Joeri »

outlace wrote: post #69
nextos wrote: post #12

I clean with a steamer. It doesn't project particles, and it's extremely good at disinfecting. I also use a vacuum cleaner with exceptionally low dust re-emission. And an air purifier. The only "chemicals" I use are an extremely mild lactic acid based cleaner and a pre/probiotic on toilets and kitchen tops. And I don't use any fragrances anywhere. My allergy problems have disappeared. I really recommend this approach…

Per the hygiene hypothesis, I wonder if your allergies got better because you’re exposing yourself to more (generally harmless) microorganisms and hence challenging your immune system more. Since I’m sure lactic acid doesn’t sterilize as well as some strong bleach or other chemical.

Anecdata: my wife’s allergies come and go quite predictably switching between regular and hypoallergenic soaps and laundry detergents. Especially with laundry detergent a single load with the wrong detergent can have her sneezing all day. That doesn’t fit the micro organism exposure theory.

Myself I have an allergy to grass pollen, but the catalyst that really brings it out is car exhaust. Personally I believe that the chemicals in our environment are catalysts for natural sensitivities, turning them into allergies.

Re: Cleaning sprays have an impact on lung health comparable to cigarettes

#128

Post by Moru »

Joeri wrote: post #127
outlace wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per the hygiene hypothesis, I wonder if your allergies got better because you’re exposing yourself to more (generally harmless) microorganisms and hence challenging your immune system more. Since I’m sure lactic acid doesn’t sterilize as well as some strong bleach or other chemical.

Anecdata: my wife’s allergies come and go quite predictably switching between regular and hypoallergenic soaps and laundry detergents. Especially with laundry detergent a single load with the wrong detergent can have her sneezing all day. That doesn’t fit the micro organism exposure theory. Myself I have an allergy to grass pollen, but the catalyst that really brings it out is car exhaust. Personally I believe that t…

Sounds just like me. One thing at a time can be ok but combinations really triggers. Sneezing constantly for hours is not fun. Antihistamin helps a lot by removing the pollen side and then I can stand the bad air pollution from cars.

Friends washing their clothes in perfume however there is no cure for yet.

Re: Cleaning sprays have an impact on lung health comparable to cigarettes

#129

Post by refurb »

nonbel wrote: post #124
refurb wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asbestos is more than an irritant. The toxicity and resulting cancer is due to the small particle size and the iron atoms in the asbestos that catalyze the formation of reactive oxygen species that damage the cell and can cause mutations. I guess my point is that there is no mechanism by which ammonia could cause something like this. It's a simple molecule that pretty much causes irritation due to it's alkaline prope…

If you believe cancer is due to the accumulation of mutations, and the ammonia/whatever is killing cells (thus increasing the turnover), then it will increase the chances of cancer simply because there are more divisions in the tissue. This follows pretty simply from the idea that cancer is caused by accumulating mutations (which you seem to believe), so why do you say "no mechanism"?

The reason is because ammonia has been around a long time, lots of studies of that its effect on biological systems have been done and it naturally occurs in human blood albeit at low concentrations.

Your point about higher turnover of cells aligns with the idea of more cell division and thus higher chance of mutation. However, just because a chemical causes irritation doesn't mean it increases cell turnover.

Also, turnover alone doesn't necessarily drive mutations and scientists don't really know why. Retinol A, rapidly increase skin cell turnover and is used to treat acne, but I've never heard of a mutation risk associated with it.

Re: Cleaning sprays have an impact on lung health comparable to cigarettes

#130

Post by outlace »

Joeri wrote: post #127
outlace wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per the hygiene hypothesis, I wonder if your allergies got better because you’re exposing yourself to more (generally harmless) microorganisms and hence challenging your immune system more. Since I’m sure lactic acid doesn’t sterilize as well as some strong bleach or other chemical.

Anecdata: my wife’s allergies come and go quite predictably switching between regular and hypoallergenic soaps and laundry detergents. Especially with laundry detergent a single load with the wrong detergent can have her sneezing all day. That doesn’t fit the micro organism exposure theory. Myself I have an allergy to grass pollen, but the catalyst that really brings it out is car exhaust. Personally I believe that t…

This is still compatible with the hygiene hypothesis. It could be that your wife grew up in a “too clean” environment and hence her immune system became hypersensitive to substances that anybody in a less clean developing country would have no issues with. She has legitimate allergies; the hygiene hypothesis just tries to explain why many people get allergies in the first place.
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