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Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

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Re: Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

#121

Post by dnate »

kerng wrote: post #50

One of the good things about HN is that the engineers working and building these features are likely reading these posts too, I'm curious how one implements these things. Are engineers (some of the brightest ones) not realizing that some of their actions are ethically questionable, or is the big picture not visible to the average engineer in a large company like FB? I assume that many have the exact same reaction and…

I have seen about 10% of my graduating cs class getting headhunted by Palantir Technologies.

From that sample size I'd estimate the percentage of engineers who don't care about ethics to be at least around 10%.

Re: Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

#122

Post by dalbasal »

Two kind of related points.

The jurisdiction stuff is disturbing. Having separate rules/rulings for Belgium, Turkey, Venezuela, etc... It's (a) not practical and will end up helping incumbents .(b) It really curbs the internet's ability to promote an open information norm.

Privacy is an issue and we need to do something about it. But, I have a real feeling cencorship, corporate-protectionism, copyright and other agendas will tag along, once the legislature-courts-enforcement complex is up and running. The sorry state of international law/governance isn't helping, including even the EU.

Meanwhile, the recent history of legislative action (eg, the "cookie laws") are not encouraging. I don't think legislators were even aware that it would amount to nothing more than nag screens and terms of use. Don't use incognito, or every site will nag you again, your consent is mandatory and stored as cookie, for extra irony.

Ultimately, these things would have been better dealt with at the standards/protocols/browsers level, but I think that ship has sailed.

Re: Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

#123

Post by manmal »

kerng wrote: post #50

One of the good things about HN is that the engineers working and building these features are likely reading these posts too, I'm curious how one implements these things. Are engineers (some of the brightest ones) not realizing that some of their actions are ethically questionable, or is the big picture not visible to the average engineer in a large company like FB? I assume that many have the exact same reaction and…

In an ideal world, engineers would be perfectly ethical. But, you know, said hyperbolically, sociopaths can be engineers too. You should not induce from your own values to people in general.

Even apart from people without any values.. most engineers don’t hang out on HN, and don’t care much about global scale politics. They care about things that affect them in a very immediate way - family wellbeing, friends, coworkers, and how to pay the bills. I think many don’t infer how much of an impact their actions actually have, since they are „only spokes in the wheel“.

Re: Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

#124

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

dalbasal wrote: post #122

Two kind of related points. The jurisdiction stuff is disturbing. Having separate rules/rulings for Belgium, Turkey, Venezuela, etc... It's (a) not practical and will end up helping incumbents .(b) It really curbs the internet's ability to promote an open information norm. Privacy is an issue and we need to do something about it. But, I have a real feeling cencorship, corporate-protectionism, copyright and other agen…

> The jurisdiction stuff is disturbing. Having separate rules/rulings for Belgium, Turkey, Venezuela, etc... It's (a) not practical and will end up helping incumbents

I don’t think so. Only really large corporations are able to serve all areas anyways. Most small companies in the world already cannot afford to serve multiple jurisdictions.

Re: Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

#125

Post by TomMarius »

anigbrowl wrote: post #87
prostoalex wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not typically how things usually work. When a government agency (think IRS or FAA) decides on a specific interpretation of a law, rule or regulation, they don’t go after a random guy to prosecute. They publish an opinion, a guideline, or interpretation and a compliance deadline. The industry is given a choice to comply or present an alternative interpretation (through courts, lobbyists or legislative represent…

Europe hews to somewhat different legal and administrative philosophies from the US, and I don't think the EU is any more corrupt than the US, arguably less so. This subject is discussed very well in a favorite little book, Adversarial Legalism by Robert Kagan.

I don't know what you mean by EU, but most of EU countries except for the west are more corrupt than the US.

EDIT: Downvotes? I'm stating facts. How can you downvote facts?

Re: Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

#126

Post by dbajakkchs »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #124
dalbasal wrote: post #122

Two kind of related points. The jurisdiction stuff is disturbing. Having separate rules/rulings for Belgium, Turkey, Venezuela, etc... It's (a) not practical and will end up helping incumbents .(b) It really curbs the internet's ability to promote an open information norm. Privacy is an issue and we need to do something about it. But, I have a real feeling cencorship, corporate-protectionism, copyright and other agen…

> The jurisdiction stuff is disturbing. Having separate rules/rulings for Belgium, Turkey, Venezuela, etc... It's (a) not practical and will end up helping incumbents I don’t think so. Only really large corporations are able to serve all areas anyways. Most small companies in the world already cannot afford to serve multiple jurisdictions.

Isn’t serving multiple jurisdictions the default online? You have to go out of your way to treat them differently.

Re: Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

#127

Post by te_chris »

dalbasal wrote: post #122

Two kind of related points. The jurisdiction stuff is disturbing. Having separate rules/rulings for Belgium, Turkey, Venezuela, etc... It's (a) not practical and will end up helping incumbents .(b) It really curbs the internet's ability to promote an open information norm. Privacy is an issue and we need to do something about it. But, I have a real feeling cencorship, corporate-protectionism, copyright and other agen…

Having jurisdictional restrictions on things like tracking cookies and other invisible forms of surveillance doesn't prevent the internet from working, it does interfere with malicious business models though.

Re: Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

#128

Post by jakobegger »

dalbasal wrote: post #122

Two kind of related points. The jurisdiction stuff is disturbing. Having separate rules/rulings for Belgium, Turkey, Venezuela, etc... It's (a) not practical and will end up helping incumbents .(b) It really curbs the internet's ability to promote an open information norm. Privacy is an issue and we need to do something about it. But, I have a real feeling cencorship, corporate-protectionism, copyright and other agen…

I’m looking forward to the GDPR. It seems to target all the failures of the cookie law.

The GDPR will not allow blanket consent statements, it will not allow “permission bundling” (eg. allow acces to everything or you can’t use the site).

The changes Twitter rolled out in preparation of the GDPR look like a good thing.

We’ll see how it turns out, but I think the GDPR will actually force companies to change, beyond cosmetic changes. And since it is valid for all “data subjects” in the EU, companies will have to consider that. The EU is too large a market that companies can ignore it.

Re: Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

#129

Post by SentientNo4 »

dbajakkchs wrote: post #126
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The jurisdiction stuff is disturbing. Having separate rules/rulings for Belgium, Turkey, Venezuela, etc... It's (a) not practical and will end up helping incumbents I don’t think so. Only really large corporations are able to serve all areas anyways. Most small companies in the world already cannot afford to serve multiple jurisdictions.

Isn’t serving multiple jurisdictions the default online? You have to go out of your way to treat them differently.

If you run a blog, yes, the global nature of Internet ensures that. If you're running a business, you must abide the law of every jurisdiction you operate in. Companies invest lots of money and effort doing this, from operational (having a physical presence in each region) to technical (e.g. how Amazon has separate sites for each region).

Re: Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

#130

Post by TomMarius »

A_No_Name_Mouse wrote: post #92
oh_sigh wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're the one in control of your browser. You know it's side effects when you load pages.

Internet had become an integral part of everyday life. This is like saying air pollution is not a problem, just don't breathe all the time. Or is my sarcasm sensor not working this morning?

Your metaphor is incorrect.
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