Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction' • Hacker News Board

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#121

Post by stinkytaco » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:42 PM UTC

lopmotr wrote: post #116

Oh no, not another save-the-language story. As with all of them, it takes for granted the assumption that it needs saving but doesn't explain why beyond "cultural heritage". Why do people need to persist the same culture as their parents and grandparents? Whatever good that does should be more than the cost of learning it and using it everywhere. Does anyone know what the good of maintaining a little-used language is…

There's historical importance to. If you lose the native speakers and writers of language, you lose the ability to read and interpret the written history of a culture. There's ancient Mediterranean civilizations we don't understand because we cannot read Linear A or Cretan.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#122

Post by jejones3141 » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:43 PM UTC

Balero wrote: post #49

mbid wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes they do. Look at popular music around the world. It's all slight variations of American popular music. I don't think this is only because of the dominance of English, but the two phenomena are definitely symptoms of the same disease.

Well yeah, looking at popular music will do that. There's a massive amount of advertising money to make it popular. Look at the less forced genres of music. Rap in the USA, Grime in the UK, similar but different. The UK has a very different type of indie (named from coming from an independent label) music. And Country is only popular in the USA. If you have a quick look on the surface it can be similar, but if you lo…

I'm kind of sorry to hear that about country music; some time ago I occasionally caught a country show on, I swear, BBC World Service, featuring singers clearly from the British Isles.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#123

Post by atlih » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:45 PM UTC

lopmotr wrote: post #116

Oh no, not another save-the-language story. As with all of them, it takes for granted the assumption that it needs saving but doesn't explain why beyond "cultural heritage". Why do people need to persist the same culture as their parents and grandparents? Whatever good that does should be more than the cost of learning it and using it everywhere. Does anyone know what the good of maintaining a little-used language is…

Language affects our thought process, so therefore the fewer languages there are in the world the more monotone the thought process of the world. I'm not saying there's any chance of saving the languages, we will most definitely end up with only one language somewhere in the next 200 years, I'm just pointing out that there's something we'll lose along the way.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#124

Post by Mediterraneo10 » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:54 PM UTC

aestetix wrote: post #51

I think that the idea that all languages but English are going to fade away makes sense to people who only speak English. I've lived in Germany for a couple years, and have noticed that when native English speakers come here, the Germans all speak to them in English, and when the English speakers go away, the Germans immediately revert back to their native tongue. They can usually do the same for French speakers and…

In the linked article, it is Icelanders too who are complaining about domain loss. It's not just a matter of foreign visitors having a mistaken impression of the local sociolinguistics.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#125

Post by notahacker » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:58 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #79

SEJeff wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know that the English language doesn't originate in America, right? Equating the spread of English as a step in the Americanization of the world (to me) is a bit silly. I can reword your statement to use Spanish and Peru. It sounds just as weird: I see the spread of the Spanish language a step in the Peruvianization of the world, which is a shame. In America, we speak all kinds of languages, of which English is t…

American cultural projection and economic success in the 20th century is overwhelmingly responsible for spreading the English language to so many corners of the globe. The British Empire collapsed and retracted back to the UK. Britain's global cultural projection is a small fraction of the US today. If eg Britain were the primary driver of English since WW2, as the first major sponsors of the language, you'd more lik…

I'm not sure English would have "retracted back to the UK" even if the US spoke Navajo as its preferred language. It's not realistic expectations of doing business with the US or watching Hollywood instead of Bollywood that explains why English became the alternative to Hindu dominance of language in Indian education, commerce and civil service. The much earlier decline of Spanish colonial influence didn't diminish the pervasiveness of its language in certain parts of the world (most where English is seldom spoken) in any meaningful way, and there really aren't any obvious corners of the globe English hadn't already spread to some extent before American cultural influence kicked in.

There's a reason why people haven't been aggressively learning Chinese despite it being the language of the world's #2 economic power, and that's because all the boots on the ground work to set up civil services, education systems and trade networks and associate their language with prestige and power had already been done by colonialists speaking other languages.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#126

Post by Bromskloss » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:58 PM UTC

lopmotr wrote: post #116

Oh no, not another save-the-language story. As with all of them, it takes for granted the assumption that it needs saving but doesn't explain why beyond "cultural heritage". Why do people need to persist the same culture as their parents and grandparents? Whatever good that does should be more than the cost of learning it and using it everywhere. Does anyone know what the good of maintaining a little-used language is…

> Why do people need to persist the same culture as their parents and grandparents?

What if they cannot specify a logical reason, but still feel like it? Isn't that enough?

Do you never feel a joy and pride in following in your parents' footsteps, in having the same traditions as older ancestors, or in feeling the same rain, walking in the same forests, and struggling on the same Earth as many others from generations ancient and recent? It's when I do that that I see them, those who I know have lived, appear from the mist, that I may greet them, be in their midst, and know that I am one of them.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#127

Post by lopmotr » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 10:04 PM UTC

Bromskloss wrote: post #126

lopmotr wrote: post #116

Oh no, not another save-the-language story. As with all of them, it takes for granted the assumption that it needs saving but doesn't explain why beyond "cultural heritage". Why do people need to persist the same culture as their parents and grandparents? Whatever good that does should be more than the cost of learning it and using it everywhere. Does anyone know what the good of maintaining a little-used language is…

> Why do people need to persist the same culture as their parents and grandparents? What if they cannot specify a logical reason, but still feel like it? Isn't that enough? Do you never feel a joy and pride in following in your parents' footsteps, in having the same traditions as older ancestors, or in feeling the same rain, walking in the same forests, and struggling on the same Earth as many others from generations…

That's always available for individuals who just copy what their parents do. You don't need external effort to save a language for that. If kids can't be bothered with their parent's dialect, why not let them ignore it?

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#128

Post by lopmotr » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 10:05 PM UTC

atlih wrote: post #123

lopmotr wrote: post #116

Oh no, not another save-the-language story. As with all of them, it takes for granted the assumption that it needs saving but doesn't explain why beyond "cultural heritage". Why do people need to persist the same culture as their parents and grandparents? Whatever good that does should be more than the cost of learning it and using it everywhere. Does anyone know what the good of maintaining a little-used language is…

Language affects our thought process, so therefore the fewer languages there are in the world the more monotone the thought process of the world. I'm not saying there's any chance of saving the languages, we will most definitely end up with only one language somewhere in the next 200 years, I'm just pointing out that there's something we'll lose along the way.

This has come up a lot but do you have any examples where it's significant?

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#129

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 10:06 PM UTC

radagast wrote: post #7

This has been discussed for as long as I remember myself (am 30 now). First it was the influence of english in TV (we only dub childrens shows and movies). I came unscattered from my youth and really doubt that my children won't be as good or better at icelandic than me. Everyone has learned icelandic, basic danish and advanced english at age 16. From the age 16-20 majority of kids add a fourth language which is eith…

What about the opportunity cost of learning all those languages. Time spent learning languages is time that is not used for other things. Age 16-20 was a crucial time in my learning computer programming at a deep level. I wonder what the marginal utility of a fourth language learned over 4 years as opposed to 4 years of say learning programming or math or finance or history or art more deeply?

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#130

Post by kodis » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 10:07 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #117

kuschku wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many German productions have you seen? How many French? Germany and France each produce just as much or even more content than the UK. Yet, none of this content ever leaves the country. British content can directly be sold on the US market, which means they can get much more money from those licensing deals to finance more productions. The only situation where German or French productions show up internationally…

> How many German productions have you seen? How many French? Quite a few French, actually.

Also, Spanish, so much so that our cable TV provider offers several 'all Spanish all the time' cable stations.