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The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

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Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#121

Post by sitkack »

Ironic that this [0] is the top story at the same time as this article is on the front page.

How can an academic be arguably arguing against Constructivist Learning Theory [1] without mentioning Piaget [2] or Papert [3], from the birthplace of Scratch [4] no less.

The author recommends, "design drills for it" but at the same time deriding project-based learning as simulating work. I cannot think of a better way to encourage stimulus-response coding than, "doing drills". Projects provide context, which provide anchors for knowledge. Projects provide a constant stream of problems with a motivation to solve them, the teacher should be there to guide the student towards the knowledge and skills to solve the problems as they arise.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16453192

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructivism_(philosophy_of_...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Piaget

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Papert

[4] https://scratch.mit.edu/

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#122

Post by ma2rten »

Ensorceled wrote: post #104
ma2rten wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. I attended a regular computer science program and I am glad I did. The goal of university is not to prepare you as best as possible for working life, but to teach academic thinking. Class projects usually have a specific purpose, like teaching computer vision, operating systems or building compilers. You'll spend the rest of your life working. There is no need to rush into it, in my opinion. Then again,…

I'm pretty sure you don't understand how co-op programs work at universities. You actually take the exact same courses as the "academic thinking" students, you just also alternate with work in a relevant industry. Can you explain why you think taking courses and working flipping burgers or some other summer job is better than taking those same courses and being mentored by practicing engineers, programmers, scientist…

I am assuming that those 18 month of work experience will be at the expense of coursework.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#123

Post by sagefy »

The author suggests there's a choice between scaffolding and project-based learning. There isn't. Scaffolding -- or breaking things down, and 'putting on training wheels' so the learner doesn't get overwhelmed -- is an established successful teaching strategy with plenty of research to defend the technique. Project-based learning lends to the idea that making things real, instead of just drills, leads to better learner motivation and retention. Project-based learning also has evidence-based support. The idea that these two learning strategies in are opposition is false. You can absolutely break down activities in components, teach those first, and then do integration practice -- all while doing project-based learning. Think 'mini-projects'.

Disclaimer: I'm working on https://sagefy.org/

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#124

Post by sevensor »

ma2rten wrote: post #56
schoosi wrote: post #22

I attended a university with a strong co-op program, and I personally believe it is the best possible solution. Classes were focused on theory and my three 6-month co-ops were spent working on meaningful software projects at real companies. As a result, I was able to build up a solid background in Computer Science theory, didn't have to deal with the shortcomings of group class projects, and learned how to ship produ…

I don't know. I attended a regular computer science program and I am glad I did. The goal of university is not to prepare you as best as possible for working life, but to teach academic thinking. Class projects usually have a specific purpose, like teaching computer vision, operating systems or building compilers. You'll spend the rest of your life working. There is no need to rush into it, in my opinion. Then again,…

> The goal of university is not to prepare you as best as possible for working life, but to teach academic thinking.

This is a well-worn false dichotomy. It sets up scientific understanding of a field against job skills. Scientific understanding is important because it saves you months or years of flailing around in the dark, trying to solve problems without understanding them, or worse, producing half-baked work that could be so much better if only you had a clue. But without context, it's very hard to make knowledge stick, and projects provide that context.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#125

Post by zombieprocesses »

slm_HN wrote: post #16

This reads like a very thinly veiled ad for the author's $500 Software Design web class. Project based learning won't work, traditional learning won't work, only my class will work. In fact the source he quotes (himself) claims he can give you a year's worth of experience in an hour. But why doesn't project based learning fail? Well, in his example Bob, who wants to learn network programming, pairs with Alice, who so…

> This reads like a very thinly veiled ad for the author's $500 Software Design web class.

My takeaway as well.

> In fact the source he quotes (himself) claims he can give you a year's worth of experience in an hour.

Did he invent a form mind-meld?

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#126

Post by aidaman »

jibreel wrote: post #106
cthalupa wrote: post #58

What a bizarre article. While the whole "Learning Styles" stuff is largely debunked by scientific research, we do know that different things motivate different people. I would argue that motivation is the single most important aspect of learning - if you're not motivated to learn something, you're not going to do it. I tried to learn programming skills on and off all through my teenage years and early 20s, but it alw…

Can you please explain what you mean by "Learning Styles is debunked by scientific research" ?

"I am a visual learner." That has been debunked.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#127

Post by adjkant »

ma2rten wrote: post #122
Ensorceled wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure you don't understand how co-op programs work at universities. You actually take the exact same courses as the "academic thinking" students, you just also alternate with work in a relevant industry. Can you explain why you think taking courses and working flipping burgers or some other summer job is better than taking those same courses and being mentored by practicing engineers, programmers, scientist…

I am assuming that those 18 month of work experience will be at the expense of coursework.

This is not the case at pretty much every co-op school I know of, including my own. Usually the programs utilize summer breaks and take 5 years, though you can often do 2 co-ops in 4 years or the like.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#128

Post by simplify »

watwut wrote: post #19
simplify wrote: post #7

The author is not criticizing project-based learning in general, but instead how some curriculum (I wonder who's?) uses group projects as the only form of learning. This feels a bit like a strawman. I agree group projects are not the best way to teach individual concepts. However, they're the best way to put what you've learned into practice . To use the author's martial arts analogy, group projects are like sparring…

Group project communication and work communication are different. I have rarely had problem to communicate in work, but group projects were usually crap. The worst about group project is when one person picks all the interesting tasks and learns, others don't. Which means that people who know least and need practice most, are the ones that are pushed to anciliary roles with only little practice happening.

> The worst about group project is when one person picks all the interesting tasks and learns, others don't.

The reason this happened is because of a lack of group communication skills. I would blame your instructor for not pre-addressing problems like this before things got started, or not checking in at all.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#129

Post by srtjstjsj »

sitkack wrote: post #121

Ironic that this [0] is the top story at the same time as this article is on the front page. How can an academic be arguably arguing against Constructivist Learning Theory [1] without mentioning Piaget [2] or Papert [3], from the birthplace of Scratch [4] no less. The author recommends, "design drills for it" but at the same time deriding project-based learning as simulating work. I cannot think of a better way to en…

This advertisement article is on the front page because a voting ring promoted it.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#130

Post by srtjstjsj »

cthalupa wrote: post #58

What a bizarre article. While the whole "Learning Styles" stuff is largely debunked by scientific research, we do know that different things motivate different people. I would argue that motivation is the single most important aspect of learning - if you're not motivated to learn something, you're not going to do it. I tried to learn programming skills on and off all through my teenage years and early 20s, but it alw…

"Learning Styles" wasn't debunk, oversimplifying extremist claims were debunked. There are different ways to learn, but they are effective for different people to different extents at different times.
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