Live data from Hacker News

Bitcoin has a huge scaling problem–Lightning could be the solution

arstechnica.com

121–130 of 141 posts

Re: Bitcoin has a huge scaling problem–Lightning could be the solution

#121
post #92

Lightning appears to add more problems than solutions. It has a whole bunch of critical issues. Here is a short list. 1. You need to have a computer constantly online or your counter party can easily steal all your money. This leaves you vulnerable to all sorts of attacks. 2. The lightning network works by routing payments through a network to your destination. The issue here is that the routing for the lightning net…

Wow. I didn't know about #1. That is absolutely, categorically fatal. If that's true then lightning is DOA. Nothing to see here.

As long as you solve transaction malleability (segwit), #1 is a non-issue.

Re: Bitcoin has a huge scaling problem–Lightning could be the solution

#122
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin Cash can’t even scrape together enough transactions to form 100kb blocks. It’s rather disengenuous to say it’s scaling better when it has a fraction of the users. Furthermore, larger block size is directly related to centralization. The bcash crowd hopes people forget decentralization is important.

It's a common misconception that block size is somehow related to decentralization. In fact you don't need a whole blockchain to verify transactions securely, you only need a few last blocks at max. Also full nodes add nothing to the network, they have no vote, only miners and actual users do.

If only Coinbase and large exchanges can afford to run full nodes, how many programmers will be able to afford to program your programmable money?

Re: Bitcoin has a huge scaling problem–Lightning could be the solution

#123
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you could have multiple "watching" services that can prevent any one "watching" service from betraying you. Obviously controlling your own "watching" system is most secure, but the vast majority of people aren't going to want to do it themselves. And again, if the biggest worry is that someone will pay off multiple "watchers" then publish a previous version of a channel to steal money from you and hope that your…

According to you own words, the answer to poor transaction times is to make transactions less reliable and to introduce centralization. I have to ask the million dollar question. Has this been threat modeled?

I don't know where you got all that from!

Transactions in LN are just as "reliable", and don't introduce centralization in any meaningful way.

As for the "modeling", I'm not sure what you want. The threats have been outlined in the whitepaper, and successfully tested in some capacity on testnet. And now they are being tested as lightning network is being rolled out on mainnet. There might be some formal "threat modeling", but i'm not familiar with what that would even look like or mean.

No better way to "threat model" than to try it out in a hostile environment where bad actors that have some kind of "exploit" can already use it to gain BTC.

Re: Bitcoin has a huge scaling problem–Lightning could be the solution

#124
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

0 conf transactions are incredibly insecure. If you accept one you are putting a great deal of trust in the person paying you. Bitcoin transactions are suppose to be trustless.

No, they are secure, you just have to trust miners a bit more so they don't throw your transaction out of mempool. I would even argue that all the complications involved in setting up and using Lightning network make it less secure than 0-conf.

You could argue it, but you'd be wrong. 0-conf requires trust, LN is trust-less.

Re: Bitcoin has a huge scaling problem–Lightning could be the solution

#125
post #22

Lightning will become centralized into services like banks and Paypal since it's too difficult to use for an average person, which completely defeats the idea of Bitcoin as P2P cryptocurrency.

1. Banks/exchanges/Paypal have KYC regulations - fulfilling these are impossible due to Onion routing provided by the nodes.

2. My mom does not know how HTTP works and she uses the Internet just fine. It's naive to think that users are going to be explicitly opening and closing channels, finding best path, etc. These can be built into wallets and abstracted out. Besides, Bitcoin of today is already too complicated for the "average" person.

Re: Bitcoin has a huge scaling problem–Lightning could be the solution

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it's not a decent payment method, it's not a currency. Before bitcoin, was there any currency that was also a payment method? I would also add that though it's not great a payment method, it's not to a degree worse than payments in euros for instance. Bank wire transfers take up to three days in Europe. I don't hear anyone stating that this undermines the value of euro as a currency.

> was there any currency that was also a payment method? Every currency has, by definition, native payment methods. (If it doesn't, it's a settlement system, not a currency.) Most simply: physical cash. Electronic payment systems are more complicated. In some countries, consumers can directly access them. In others, e.g. the United States, consumers indirectly access the settling-in-seconds and costing-pennies Fedwir…

> Maximum settlement time for SEPA transfers has been 1 business day since 2012.

I had not noticed. It's still much longer than 10 minutes, isn't it?

Re: Bitcoin has a huge scaling problem–Lightning could be the solution

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> was there any currency that was also a payment method? Every currency has, by definition, native payment methods. (If it doesn't, it's a settlement system, not a currency.) Most simply: physical cash. Electronic payment systems are more complicated. In some countries, consumers can directly access them. In others, e.g. the United States, consumers indirectly access the settling-in-seconds and costing-pennies Fedwir…

> Maximum settlement time for SEPA transfers has been 1 business day since 2012. I had not noticed. It's still much longer than 10 minutes, isn't it?

> It's still much longer than 10 minutes, isn't it?

Wrong tool for the task. Ironically, every transaction I’ve done in Europe used U.S. dollars and Fedwires, which close immediately and cost basically nothing. When people go off about petrodollars or whatever, the simple fact of American international payment superiority is often missed.

(The ECB has been taking about an always-on instantaneous system for a while [1]. I haven’t kept track of its progress.)

[1] https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/retpaym/instant/html/index.en...

Re: Bitcoin has a huge scaling problem–Lightning could be the solution

#128
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to you own words, the answer to poor transaction times is to make transactions less reliable and to introduce centralization. I have to ask the million dollar question. Has this been threat modeled?

I don't know where you got all that from! Transactions in LN are just as "reliable", and don't introduce centralization in any meaningful way. As for the "modeling", I'm not sure what you want. The threats have been outlined in the whitepaper, and successfully tested in some capacity on testnet. And now they are being tested as lightning network is being rolled out on mainnet. There might be some formal "threat model…

> As for the "modeling", I'm not sure what you want. The threats have been outlined in the whitepaper, and successfully tested in some capacity on testnet.

> No better way to "threat model" than to try it out in a hostile environment

You just answered my question, sorry to say.

Re: Bitcoin has a huge scaling problem–Lightning could be the solution

#129
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where you got all that from! Transactions in LN are just as "reliable", and don't introduce centralization in any meaningful way. As for the "modeling", I'm not sure what you want. The threats have been outlined in the whitepaper, and successfully tested in some capacity on testnet. And now they are being tested as lightning network is being rolled out on mainnet. There might be some formal "threat model…

> As for the "modeling", I'm not sure what you want. The threats have been outlined in the whitepaper, and successfully tested in some capacity on testnet. > No better way to "threat model" than to try it out in a hostile environment You just answered my question, sorry to say.

Don't take my not knowing what you mean as a confirmation that nobody in this space knows what you are talking about.

I know the technical side somewhat well, and apparently have a thing for explaining the basics in layman's terms. I have a feeling I don't know what you mean by "threat modeling", but that doesn't mean nobody does. And your choosing to make sly comments instead of explaining yourself doesn't fill me with confidence that you are being completely impartial here...

Re: Bitcoin has a huge scaling problem–Lightning could be the solution

#130
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As for the "modeling", I'm not sure what you want. The threats have been outlined in the whitepaper, and successfully tested in some capacity on testnet. > No better way to "threat model" than to try it out in a hostile environment You just answered my question, sorry to say.

Don't take my not knowing what you mean as a confirmation that nobody in this space knows what you are talking about. I know the technical side somewhat well, and apparently have a thing for explaining the basics in layman's terms. I have a feeling I don't know what you mean by "threat modeling", but that doesn't mean nobody does. And your choosing to make sly comments instead of explaining yourself doesn't fill me w…

> Don't take my not knowing what you mean as a confirmation that nobody in this space knows what you are talking about.

I don't take that. I'd go on a limb to say the majority of readers here are familiar with the concept of threat modeling. Since you don't want to look-up the term, instead slighting me for using it: What is called a threat model is in reality a vulnerability model created by a formal process. In software development, there may not have been a single threat model created by security people that didn't expose vulnerabilities overlooked or not paid attention to by developers of the particular app in question. This is done from an attacker's perspective by people familiar with that perspective, instead of from a developer's perspective which usually doesn't notice vulnerabilities in their own design. This isn't a slight on the developers but that the attacker's mindset and the specialized knowledge of security people are not normally conjoint with general purpose devs.

> instead of explaining yourself doesn't fill me with confidence that you are being completely impartial here...

Impartial? That sounds silly to me, but I know there are tons of people who promulgate their cryptocurrencies and network addons without regard to reality. I'm not one of them. I no longer have any position in any coins, having sold my coins fully in the latest run-up, and am not a creator or anything of any of them.

By the way, you come across as pushing for lightening partially not impartially, since you have danced around the two points I made in my first post. You seem to be an apologist for the tech, not someone who wants to get the right tech implemented. I don't know why you accused me of being partial, when all I did was point out two issues with your statement and asked a question. In reality, you don't seem impartial and should disclose your stake in this tech.

Post reply on HN