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FAA Issues Emergency Order of Revocation Against TapJets

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Re: FAA Issues Emergency Order of Revocation Against TapJets

#121
post #17
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the person you are responding to, but as someone who probably feels the same way, I'm ok with someone disrupting my local taxi monopoly by having someone who is not certified driving the car that is taking me to the airport, because I can largely agree that most humans can drive a car. I'm much less ok with the person flying my airplane not being certified.

And fortunately commercial pilot licenses are semi-common too.

But an ATPL (airline transport pilot license) is hard and much more rare, unlike CPL it requires significant experience and training. Those are what you want for an airline. "Commercial pilot license" (CPL) is something that even I as a private pilot can rather easily add to my repertoire, it does not require much experience.

Some answers to the question "Difference between CPL and ATPL":

- https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-CPL-and...

- https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/18vzuj/can_someone_...

- https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-168050.html

Re: FAA Issues Emergency Order of Revocation Against TapJets

#122
post #51

I am completely against any "disruption" in the airline industry via safety arbitrage.

It's the next step in airline unbundling: Pay extra for a seatbelt! For a floatation device! And take the business-class flights that features actual trained pilots!

You may say this in jest, but RyanAir actually applied for permission to do flights with unseated passengers. Fortunately, we still have an aviation authority (in Norway) wise enough to throw it out, sneering.

Re: FAA Issues Emergency Order of Revocation Against TapJets

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an extreme difference in the number of hours and required training between your SPL/PPL/CPL/ATPL. Eg: For fixed wing, you can get your PPL within 35 flight hours at a Part 141 School. Your ATP comes at a minimum of 1500 hours, and you are required to know much more about emergency recovery. The regs in place regarding minimum requirements for carrying passengers and performing commercial ops are there for ve…

That's very informative, but it doesn't quite answer the question. Why are you allowed to have passengers with a PPL if it's so dangerous? And why does that reason stop applying when the passengers pay?

While I can't claim to be an expert in _why_ the FAA chose to structure the regs the way they do, I have some personal thoughts on the matter. dweekly has a great comment explaining Part 91, 135, and 121 operation rules that I'll reference here.

A Part 91 flight conducted by a PPL with passengers certainly isn't the safest activity the pilot or passengers could partake in. But its certainly enjoyable. Let's take a similar example. A hobbyist motorcycle racer owns a private track, and a friend wants a joy-ride. Similarly to a passenger on a Part 91 flight, a passenger on a high speed sports bike is at higher risk of fatality than a person who decided to spend the day relaxing at the beach. But doing so on private property with little/no risk to non-participants is not illegal. Many/Most high-risk activities are not illegal provided that the risk is only to the willing participants. While I can't be sure that's the reason the FAA allows low-hour non-CPL pilots to carry passengers, I would imagine it is a large contributing factor considering the statistical probability of fatality is with the pilot and passengers, not people in other planes or on the ground (to the best of my knowledge).

Part 135 and 121 operations have the license requirements such that people purchasing services have a reasonable expectation that the pilots involved have been properly trained, and are VERY safe.

Now to the kicker. Why are private pilots not allowed to accept ANY compensation? Really, NO COMPENSATION. Although I haven't personally heard of anyone getting their license revoked for something as little as paying the full cost of expenses, it is against the regulations for your passengers to pay more than half the pro-rata share of expenses (rent, fuel, etc...). This is a hotly debated item, that no one seems to have a good answer for. The most convinving argument I've heard is that it goes back to the late '20s when the regs for commercial pilots started going into place. The history around this is shaky, but supposedly the commercial license came about as a way to track interstate and foreign commerce. Supposedly the government at the time was scared of the ability to circumvent taxes since they couldn't as easily stop and check trucks or trains crossing borders. So they created the commercial license as a way of regulating inter-border trade to trusted pilots. I don't have a source on that unfortunately - more of an oral tradition story. But it makes the most sense to me of everything I've heard.

Another rabbit-hole I won't go too deep into is the issue of insurance. Getting insurance on an aircraft is much more expensive if it will be used for compensation purposes (Part 135 or 121). Even if a private pilot were able to get compensation from passengers or for cargo, the insurance rate would be astronomical(as a commercial rotor wing pilot, I can't find a job doing anything but instructing until I hit ~1000 hours due to insurance rates, if an insurance company would even let me fly on a commercial bird before then). And if you got in an accident while providing paid-for services without proper (for comp)insurance, it would not pay-out anything.

tl;dr You can have PPL w/ passengers because you're mostly only endangering yourself and willing passengers. Commercial operations are limited to using CPL/ATPL pilots such that consumers have a reasonable guarantee of safety. And nobody knows why private pilots can't be compensated (although if someone has a source with concrete answer I would love to hear it). Even if they could legally, they financially couldn't due to insurance costs.

Re: FAA Issues Emergency Order of Revocation Against TapJets

#124
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What that certificate attests is that the airline has appropriate infrastructure in place to operate the specific aircraft type(s) safely. That means appropriately trained and qualified technicians to maintain the aircraft, a proper supply chain to procurement airworthy spare parts, properly trained aircrew, etc. Operating aircraft isn't like web development where you can just push a buggy pile of JavaScript and fix…

It's the distinction between private and commercial that doesn't make sense to me. If I want to fly from A to B, whether I get paid or not doesn't make a difference to the safety of the passengers. If I have a private pilot cert, I am qualified to fly the aircraft safely. Enlighten me if I'm wrong.

Aside from what others have mentioned, yes just the fact that you're getting paid makes a difference to the safety of the passengers.

If you and your three friends have agreed to split the cost of a joyride on the weekend in your Cessna and there's an unexpected storm, you're much more likely to just cancel. You're all going for fun, nobody wants to fly in bad weather, and you can just go on some other weekend.

Consider the same example where you have three paying customers who've you've agreed to fly around on the weekend. Now you'll be in a situation of having to refund tickets to disappointed customers. You might decide to go ahead with it anyway. Now you're putting members of the public at more risk for your own monetary interest.

Re: FAA Issues Emergency Order of Revocation Against TapJets

#125
post #122
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the next step in airline unbundling: Pay extra for a seatbelt! For a floatation device! And take the business-class flights that features actual trained pilots!

You may say this in jest, but RyanAir actually applied for permission to do flights with unseated passengers. Fortunately, we still have an aviation authority (in Norway) wise enough to throw it out, sneering.

Wasn't that an april 1st joke, though?

Re: FAA Issues Emergency Order of Revocation Against TapJets

#126
post #122
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the next step in airline unbundling: Pay extra for a seatbelt! For a floatation device! And take the business-class flights that features actual trained pilots!

You may say this in jest, but RyanAir actually applied for permission to do flights with unseated passengers. Fortunately, we still have an aviation authority (in Norway) wise enough to throw it out, sneering.

They haven't. It's a marketing ploy: throw some crap as PR and see where it sticks

Keeps them on the news as the "thinking of how to make stuff cheaper". Note how this has toned down in the past year or so, because the "as cheap as possible" thing was backfiring on them

Re: FAA Issues Emergency Order of Revocation Against TapJets

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My life insurance policy specifically denies a claim if I'm flying general aviation (private plane). It is that much more dangerous than commercial (on par with driving in a car). https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/opinion/The-Dangers-of-Pr... "The National Transportation Safety Board found that in 2011, 94 percent of fatal aviation accidents occurred in what’s called general aviation. That category includes private…

on par with driving in a car ...which people in general seem to have no particular fear of.

Majority of car accidents are minor. You might end with some bruises or some damage to the car, but nothing too bad

Plane accidents are much more likely to result in fatalities

Re: FAA Issues Emergency Order of Revocation Against TapJets

#128
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It actually does make a difference. The main difference between a Private Pilots License (PPL) and a Commercial Pilots License (CPL) is that you cannot fly customers for profit on a PPL (but you can fly people as favors and be reimbursed for expenses). Its hard to tell just how serious these accusations are. For instance >the airman who served as second-in-command only had a student pilot certificate Presumably the f…

The problem with your comment is that you are wrong in your interpretation. Your interpretation is that it's black and white on what the FAA can do. There's famous saying among pilots when doing something that isn't explicit in FARs. "That sounds like a grey area". For a conservative pilot, they'll never do it because it could be a license suspension or at minimum dialing a number to talk to an FAA investigator. To a…

>I am curious if you're a pilot and if so have your CPL or ATP.

I got nothin. I'm just a slightly knowledgeable person.

Flying is on my bucket list. I've researched the topic a bit more than the average lay person. That's about it.

Re: FAA Issues Emergency Order of Revocation Against TapJets

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My life insurance policy specifically denies a claim if I'm flying general aviation (private plane). It is that much more dangerous than commercial (on par with driving in a car). https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/opinion/The-Dangers-of-Pr... "The National Transportation Safety Board found that in 2011, 94 percent of fatal aviation accidents occurred in what’s called general aviation. That category includes private…

on par with driving in a car ...which people in general seem to have no particular fear of.

Because people in general are idiots.

Or, to express it more charitably - we're all used to it. Car-related fatalities no longer register as unusual. You don't hear much about them in the news. They're treated as "something that unavoidably happens to people". Like cancer or heart attack, and unlike murder, which is unusual. I'm willing to bet that you're friends or acquaintances with people who crashed their cars (with or without health consequences), and you're at most two hops in your social graph from people who died in a car accident.

Re: FAA Issues Emergency Order of Revocation Against TapJets

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My life insurance policy specifically denies a claim if I'm flying general aviation (private plane). It is that much more dangerous than commercial (on par with driving in a car). https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/opinion/The-Dangers-of-Pr... "The National Transportation Safety Board found that in 2011, 94 percent of fatal aviation accidents occurred in what’s called general aviation. That category includes private…

Your insurance company sounds like a bag of dicks. Do they also deny a claim if you ride a motorcycle without a helmet, which is legal? What about skydiving, or skiing a black diamond course, or attempting Longs Peak in the winter without three layers on?

Insurance is a for-profit business. It's normal for them to exclude high-risk activities from being covered by a policy that's priced for low-risk life. You can get a special GA-covering policy if you pay extra, there or elsewhere.
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