People leave managers, not companies • Hacker News Board

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#121

Post by thrwwyquest123 » Wed, Jan 24, 2018, 4:51 PM UTC

yarg wrote: post #44

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #3

Likewise, there probably isn't such a thing as a 10X developer, but I totally believe 10X managers exist (they provide cover, they have empathy, they are able to lead people who otherwise aren't very manageable). I've only met very few of them in my career, most managers are 1X or even negative.

I really don't like the concept of a 10X developer - it implies linear scaling. If you keep writing very similar implementations of very similar things (without actively damaging the code-base) you may very well be an O(n) developer. You keep working at the same pace regardless. If you are a developer of some calibar, the work that you've already done will feed back into the work that you're doing - making you an O(l…

How do I know if I am an O(k^n) developer? My first "software engineer" job I did absolutely nothing but write update scripts, incredibly minute fixes to 10k+ line stored procedures and then helped watch deployments. I left that one for a new one, and I feel very slow compared to my coworker and I know that most of the time my designs for new features are extremely lacking. Should I leave my position since I fear I am impacting his ability to have high quality code?

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#122

Post by eldavido » Wed, Jan 24, 2018, 4:51 PM UTC

somberi wrote: post #28

I have been managing large teams (Anywhere from 100 to 300 people) and in my experience I would phrase it differently. 1. In a going concern, which has found traction, a manager is often the _reason_ for people to leave the company. 2. In a company that is not finding traction, or the larger view of its direction is obfuscated, managers are the reason people _stay_ back to work. This manager being the end-all of asso…

This is a really insightful comment. I came here to say I'm the counter-example to the article, in that I left a pretty good manager at a company that was clearly failing.

This article feels like one of these things where someone's trying to fit something messy and human into a simple, clean narrative.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#123

Post by TheCoelacanth » Wed, Jan 24, 2018, 4:53 PM UTC

FilterSweep wrote: post #108

subsubsub wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is turning up on time for your job a terrible metric? To me being on time is just a very basic low level requirement of being a professional. As the initial commenter said: trust goes both ways. Turning up on time is a good way to show your manager that you can be trusted. Edit: Actually, turning up on time may not make your manager trust you more, but turning up late will definitely make them trust you less.

> Is turning up on time for your job a terrible metric? Most devs are "round the clock" employees even though their job doesn't explicitly say so. If a serious production crisis happens at 3:00AM, all hands are on deck.

Only at dysfunctional companies. If you need round the clock coverage, you need to set up an on-call rotation. Expecting employees to be available 24/7 is completely unreasonable.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#124

Post by TheCoelacanth » Wed, Jan 24, 2018, 4:58 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #52

sheepmullet wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To me being on time is just a very basic low level requirement of being a professional. What is on time? On time for what exactly? Is he missing any meetings? Is he working fewer hours? Is he doing less work? Is he impacting a colleague? Why do you consider something that has no relationship to the posters job to be a basic requirement to being a professional?

OK, I'll give an example. My team leader in a previous job used to regularly turn up at 11am (officially we were supposed to be in by 9.30, but it was academia and no one complained too much). I was usually in before 9.15 - like the majority of the staff. So sometimes I would need to ask him something, and he wasn't around - that would hold me up. Sometimes other people would need to ask him something. He wasn't arou…

A team that can't function on their own for two hours sounds like a very poorly run team.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#125

Post by triplesec » Wed, Jan 24, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

dominotw wrote: post #80

ZenoArrow wrote: post #79

I think this article misses an important point, which is that managers, or at least line managers, are often the messenger for decisions made in upper management. If I think back on the jobs I've had in the past, it's very rare for me to have issues with line managers. However, I had serious doubts about the competency of upper management in multiple companies that I've worked for. In this case, unless upper manageme…

I am this exact situation. I love my manager, simply one of the best i've ever worked with. But he is simply is messenger for poor decisions that are made by couple of incompetent people above him. I am not sure what can be done about incompetent people being promoted to position of power where they make horrendous misinformed decisions. Often its too late before the magnitude of their fuckups is visible, usually the…

Isn't it then incumbent upon your manager to challenge the incompetents above him, or work round them? There has to be a large body of literature and practice on this problem.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#126

Post by onezerozeroone » Wed, Jan 24, 2018, 5:20 PM UTC

dominotw wrote: post #80

ZenoArrow wrote: post #79

I think this article misses an important point, which is that managers, or at least line managers, are often the messenger for decisions made in upper management. If I think back on the jobs I've had in the past, it's very rare for me to have issues with line managers. However, I had serious doubts about the competency of upper management in multiple companies that I've worked for. In this case, unless upper manageme…

I am this exact situation. I love my manager, simply one of the best i've ever worked with. But he is simply is messenger for poor decisions that are made by couple of incompetent people above him. I am not sure what can be done about incompetent people being promoted to position of power where they make horrendous misinformed decisions. Often its too late before the magnitude of their fuckups is visible, usually the…

Save up a lot of money and build a large network of contacts with whom you have a reputation for being a badass...then you will have no fear of repercussions for speaking out frankly about things.

Eventually it will go to your head and you'll be viewed as a brash, arrogant, out-of-touch upper manager who throws their weight and ego around without appreciation for the repercussions of their horrendous misinformed decisions.

You either die a hero or live to see yourself become the problem.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#127

Post by phaus » Wed, Jan 24, 2018, 5:22 PM UTC

I work on a team that lost about 66% of its members in the last year and a half. Every single one of them liked our manager, but the way the organization works at a higher level was making everyone's life miserable. People absolutely leave companies because of the company.

I've also had toxic managers at other organizations, so I agree a manager CAN drive an employee away, but that's not always or even usually the case.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#128

Post by ravenstine » Wed, Jan 24, 2018, 5:31 PM UTC

lars512 wrote: post #48

ravenstine wrote: post #12

It's probably easier for managers to overrate their skills and performance because the problems they cause are often not overt; if parts of their team are underperforming, the knee-jerk assessment is that "there's something wrong with Joe" rather than "there's something wrong with our process" or "there's something wrong with what I'm doing." Some of my worst experiences with management involved cases of serious micr…

> The best mangers I've known are the ones who are minimally involved. People who are given the space to make choices, be creative, and fail every so often, will often figure out how to manage themselves. In those cases, did you feel you shared values with those managers? Or were they indifferent to your values, and just left you alone?

I've experienced both kinds of low involvement, but I was definitely referring to cases where we shared values.

A case of indifference is still preferable to tyranny, though it obviously comes with its own set of problems. The biggest issue I have with uninvolved managers is the conflict between knowing what's expected versus the level of autonomy I should have. This problem is not isolated, of course. But an uninvolved manager may grant a lot of autonomy while failing to make it clear to their employees what sort of decisions they cannot male autonomously. As an employee, I will only ask so many questions before deciding the system is ridiculous and then overriding it. That's just my nature. If something is so important to a process, like communicating with a bunch of anonymous suits on Mount Olympus before a major release of one particular product, that information should be handed down to me. I shouldn't have to pry every detail out of management to get my job done, and occasionally they'll be punished when I make an arbitrary decision.

A good manager should be able to provide relevant information and facilitate the product process while staying out of the way. If they're always too busy attending meetings outside the team, then they'll reap what they sow and have no one to blame but themselves.

By the way, I do not make character judgments on most managers. Most of the people who've managed me are great people outside the office setting.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#129

Post by watwut » Wed, Jan 24, 2018, 5:32 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #111

cpfohl wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I've literally never held a job that wasn't okay flex time, and I've worked at 4 radically different types of companies as a software engineer over the last 7 years. I'll be honest, I was surprised to read this sorry if environment still existed for programmers

Flex time shouldn't mean that you show up sometime between 8 and 11. You should be at work within some sort of reasonably consistent window barring unforeseen circumstances. When you let people run wild, you end up with angry people anyway as gold-brickers will always take advantage of the system. Communications and accountability break down as you can never have all parties involved in a matter in the same place or…

Showing up sometime between 8 and 11 is unreasonable, because it prevents people to come sooner then at 8. It should have been "sometime between 6 and 11" to be proper.

Also since people know the guy in your story is not working enough, it should be easy to check on him couple of times and then fire him.

Re: People leave managers, not companies

#130

Post by cgore » Wed, Jan 24, 2018, 5:34 PM UTC

phaus wrote: post #127

I work on a team that lost about 66% of its members in the last year and a half. Every single one of them liked our manager, but the way the organization works at a higher level was making everyone's life miserable. People absolutely leave companies because of the company. I've also had toxic managers at other organizations, so I agree a manager CAN drive an employee away, but that's not always or even usually the ca…

I think that too is on the company. A good one-level-up manager will check up on their underlings, the managers in question, and figure out who's good and bad and resolve the situation.