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The U.S. drops out of the top 10 in innovation ranking

bloomberg.com

121–130 of 143 posts

Re: The U.S. drops out of the top 10 in innovation ranking

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entertainment industry has always had pop culture icons making more than skilled-professionals. Are you getting social media confused with companies who innovate just because they both use computers?

Agree that people in entertainment always making more money than skilled-professionals. But my point is that younger demographic is heavily influenced by current social-media-preneurs rater than STEM achievers.

That's nothing new. Sports, acting, and music attracted a huge fraction of young Baby Boomers and GenXers.

Re: The U.S. drops out of the top 10 in innovation ranking

#122
post #3
post #2

Is the metric for most stem masters or phds useful? The Soviet Union use to produce many such people but never achieved much.

They beat the US in sending the first man to space. Saying that “they never achieved much” is a gigantic understatement!!

And also sent first woman to space. First dog(s) too. First orbiting spacecraft etc.

Re: The U.S. drops out of the top 10 in innovation ranking

#123
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They beat the US in sending the first man to space. Saying that “they never achieved much” is a gigantic understatement!!

And today, when American astronauts need a ride to space, guess who we have to bum it from? It's a disgusting state of affairs, regardless of anyone's opinion on Russia.

Rides into space and rocket engines are not the only thing USA needs Russian Federation for [0] and [1]. (The second reference has a misleading url; the artcile's actual title is "Why the U.S. Is Buying Natural Gas From Russia").

[0] https://www.rt.com/business/415345-united-states-buying-russ...

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-19/how-the-u...

Re: The U.S. drops out of the top 10 in innovation ranking

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically though, many rockets built by companies specializing in the US defense are dependent on Russian rocket engines to send their vehicles into space. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RD-180#Replacement_for_the_RD-...

Yes, those engines (and ISS parts) were specifically ordered by US to keep Soviet rocket production busy and to avoid their migration to North Korea or Iran.

I've not heard this idea before. Why wouldn't US simply allow the Soviet rocket production to just die?

Please do you have a reference for it?

Re: The U.S. drops out of the top 10 in innovation ranking

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to make exclusive lists to try and make one country or another look better. And who is the rest of the world? The USSR achieved a lot in comparison to Africa, South America, the Middle East, and SE Asia.

If you consider the gulag an achievement, sure! I would definitely NOT say that the USSR achieved more than Latin America. People in much of LatAm are happy and reasonably free -- very free by comparison to the USSR. But I guess you wouldn't consider freedom an achievement -- too easy, perhaps? or maybe not to your liking?

Argentina was throwing dissidents out of planes into the Atlantic ocean in the 1980's. Chile had Pinochet. Colombia only just recently signed a peace treaty with FARC, drawing down a 50 year conflict that has killed >200,000 people. Guatemala had an almost 40 year civil war. El Salvador had a 12 year civil war. I could go on...

One thing that a lot of these conflicts and situations had in common is that the USA covertly overthrew a democratically elected, socialist leaning government using the CIA. Thousands of people were killed due to the meddling of the USA and the CIA.

Re: The U.S. drops out of the top 10 in innovation ranking

#126

Is # of patent applications really a criteria in innovation? Seems to value quantity over quality.

quantity of patents is measurable, but how would you measure the originality of the patents? Patents can be cited, one way would be to measure the number of citations - but here it says that this is a feature of US patents only https://www.quora.com/Why-do-patents-cite-other-patents Is there another possible way to measure the impact of a patent that could apply to all national patent offices?

Re: The U.S. drops out of the top 10 in innovation ranking

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you consider the gulag an achievement, sure! I would definitely NOT say that the USSR achieved more than Latin America. People in much of LatAm are happy and reasonably free -- very free by comparison to the USSR. But I guess you wouldn't consider freedom an achievement -- too easy, perhaps? or maybe not to your liking?

Argentina was throwing dissidents out of planes into the Atlantic ocean in the 1980's. Chile had Pinochet. Colombia only just recently signed a peace treaty with FARC, drawing down a 50 year conflict that has killed >200,000 people. Guatemala had an almost 40 year civil war. El Salvador had a 12 year civil war. I could go on... One thing that a lot of these conflicts and situations had in common is that the USA cover…

Yes, Latin America had dark times, but before, and after, it's been rather OK -- certainly fantastic by comparison to the USSR. There are no gulags in Chile or Argentina, or Brazil, or... And Chile is doing very well -- they're the tiger of LatAm. Colombia has finally beaten back the guerillas and is doing rather well considering. And Venezuela? Yeah, not well, not Venezuela -- wonder why /s

Re: The U.S. drops out of the top 10 in innovation ranking

#128
post #8

What drags the US down most in these rankings is "tertiary efficiency": roughly the fraction of people in grad school or with graduate degrees. Ranking countries is a dodgy business, even more than ranking colleges. A different set of weights or ways of measuring things could give you totally different answers. If you're looking for a way to claim the rankings are biased, you might argue that this up-ranks countries…

I thought "Tertiary education" includes undergrad : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertiary_education

Re: The U.S. drops out of the top 10 in innovation ranking

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. A number of successful countries started off "as a poorly-developed state engaged in outright war and proxy wars". The U.S. itself, for example. And Israel, for another. Stop making excuses. And, as if the arms race of the Cold War did not involve choices made by the Soviets! Come off it. They could easily have chosen not to get dragged into an arms race. But instead they chose no only to play that game, but to t…

> A number of successful countries started off "as a poorly-developed state engaged in outright war and proxy wars". The U.S. itself, for example The US did not go through a long period of active direct and proxy conflict with the most advanced contemporary nations at it's founding. It fought a brief war to separate (which it was losing until a major power opposed to Britain intervened), and then not much with any ma…

> The US did not go through a long period of active direct and proxy conflict with the most advanced contemporary nations at it's founding

Yes it did : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Wars

Re: The U.S. drops out of the top 10 in innovation ranking

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weighted score rankings are useless / statistically irrelevant, no matter how much careful hand-tuning we do. The only way to maintain accuracy and scientific responsibility in such things is to: 1) Formally define what is meant by "innovation" in terms of clearly measurable outcomes. 2) Measure this clearly-defined quality among all countries and many sample points through time. 3) Try to separate out explanatory va…

> Formally define what is meant by "innovation" in terms of clearly measurable outcomes. Surely you can see that this is not possible, and any attempted would be superficial and would be gamed anyway?

“Innovation” is a very slippery term, so I agree defining it would be more difficult than other measures. So for simplicity, let’s use something a bit simpler, like a “quality of living index” or “overall human well-being index”.

It’s not feasible for a human to define such a metric formally upon ‘environmental variables’ (such as education stats, graduation rates, etc.) — quite obviously, as you say — yet trivial to define it as an “outcome measure”, where we directly measure the quantity in question (no matter how difficult or expensive to sample this variable).

To the “quality of living index” example: One could design a polling methodology to fairly reliably gauge people’s overall happiness and satisfaction in a country. This polling would be expensive, so we couldn’t do it super broadly or super frequently — and that’s why we use the subsequent steps described in my parent post (on forming statistical models to separate out connected variables that we can easily and cheaply measure to approximately model the “ground truth” happiness metric).

You can then use this “model fit” to predict this extremely expensive “ground truth” notion of individual happiness in this case, on a much more frequent and granular basis than would ordinarily have been feasible using a ground truth gathering method like a polling process.

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