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Inventor Claims to Have Solved Floating Point Error Problem

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Re: Inventor Claims to Have Solved Floating Point Error Problem

#121

The floating point error problem has not been solved. This patent describes a floating-point representation that includes fields for storing error information. The standard IEEE floating-point representation has three fields: a sign field, an exponent field, and a mantissa (or significand). This patent proposes reducing the size of other fields and adding additional fields to store error information. The error inform…

Yeah. It seems like just a clever mitigation technique, which could prove useful in the fields he mentioned (military, industrial, etc.), but it's far from the wholesale solution he claims.

Re: Inventor Claims to Have Solved Floating Point Error Problem

#122
post #2

And immediately patents it... so no one else can use it. EDIT: and for some other methods: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unum_%28number_format%29 , particularly the latest one being the Posit method: http://superfri.org/superfri/article/download/137/232 EDIT2: of course other people can license it, but the other way to bring a new floating point to the scene would be through the same process that happened with IEEE 7…

You don't patent things so that no one can use them. You patent things so that others have to pay you for using them. Patent holders often want others to use their inventions, and pay them money.

Re: Inventor Claims to Have Solved Floating Point Error Problem

#123
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Patents don't hold back global progress any more than capitalism keeps people in poverty. Thanks. I was worried I would go the whole day without spitting out my drink.

Ignoring the weird comparison, he's right. Patents, as bad as the system is, are an improvement on no patents.

When people start talking about ideal and better-than-idea worlds and voluntary payments or government disbursements, my mind goes to communism. While communism sounds like it provides a better outcome on paper, capitalism (with constraints) has shown it's a much better system for raising the living standard of everyone, even if there is quite a disparity between the lowest and the highest.

Would some ideal-world type situation for patents work? I doubt it. We have patents, and there are some upsides to that system, even if it has been abused recently. I think people have transferred a lot of their anger at the abuses to the concept of patents themselves. Here we have someone that patented something, and people are upset that he did that before knowing how he intends to use the patent. The patent could be free for non-commercial use. It could be free for many things. Or it could be that it's most likely to be used in hardware by a large corporation that prints chips and not individuals, and he'll license it to them and the most anyone will see of it is a few cents added to the production cost of each chip (not that anyone even knows what that is, since retail chip pricing is so crazy).

How we measure a system shouldn't be based on just the biggest successes and biggest problems (but those should be looked at), but on the long track record of what it does and how it performs. In that light, I think capitalism has shown itself a better system in the long run, and I think patents have shown their merit in the long run as well.

Re: Inventor Claims to Have Solved Floating Point Error Problem

#125
post #20

Considering the over-the-top language ("a game changer for the computing industry") and questionable or imprecise comments like, "[it] allows representation of real numbers accurate to the last digit" (um, who reads that without thinking of irrational numbers?) it sounds too much like a sales pitch and not like serious research. I could be wrong, but based on the similarities to interval arithmetic everyone has alrea…

I’m willing to wager it’s regular old floating point and it just draws the repeating bar over the repeating decimals.

Re: Inventor Claims to Have Solved Floating Point Error Problem

#127
post #99
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Under a different system that doesn't incentivize holding back global progress for small amounts of individual enrichment. Patents don't hold back global progress any more than capitalism keeps people in poverty. If we went back a few hundred years and impose alternatives, would we be better off today? I doubt it. The whole point of the patent system is to foster innovation, and free exchange of ideas. Without the…

Why going back a few hundred years? Even a few decades ago the idea of patenting mathematics was still mostly considered absurd. Imagine a world where people like e.g. Dijkstra and Lamport patented all their concurrency algorithms. Hoare patented quicksort. And so on.

It looks to my like it's a process to be carried out in hardware which is patented, and not the mathematics in question. It's a physical apparatus.

Even if it was purely mathematics, I think I would rather have someone patent it if possible and make it freely available than to leave it out and have someone else take a stab at patenting it, have the underfunded patent office fail to realize there is prior art, and grant the patent. Sure, you could effectively fight it, but until the system gets reformed enough to prevent most these abused, that's a lot of wasted resources (and having the patent lets them threaten others with it without actually bringing a case that could invalidate it).

Re: Inventor Claims to Have Solved Floating Point Error Problem

#128
post #114
post #9

Without reading the patent it sounds a lot like interval arithmetic [1] which sounds like a really good idea at first but is not without its own problems. For example the inverse 1/x for an interval x like [-1,+1] containing 0 consists of two intervals (-∞,-1] and [+1;+∞). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_arithmetic

In your example, this would correspond to having the number x = 0 +-1 and then wanting to compute 1/x. If your number can potentially be zero, why would you want to use it as a divisor?

The problem remains if you wrap the division in a non-zero check. Or maybe the interval [-1,+1] is already kind of a lie, i.e. x is known to be in the interval but you additionally know that x is non-zero when you are about to perform the division. The example is just meant to illustrate the problem that using a single interval is not good enough to track error bounds in the general case.

Re: Inventor Claims to Have Solved Floating Point Error Problem

#129
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually it's possible to represent 1/3 perfectly accurately, but what about all the numbers that it's theoretically impossible to compute? (Almost all real numbers have this property)

> Almost all real numbers have this property > Almost all I love this comment because it brings back memories of school. In a layman's terms, I think almost all in this case means all but a finite amount can we say almost all real numbers are irrational? 1 1/1 2/1 3/1 4/1 5/1 ... 2 1/2 2/2 3/2 4/2 5/2 ... 3 ... so clearly we can count all the rational numbers but how many irrational numbers are there? are there (many…

Well, if I remember correctly, a product of an irrational and a rational is still irrational, right?

If so, here's a simple argument: If you have N rational numbers and I have K irrationals to start with, I can produce roughly N*K additional irrationals. Since we know at least two irrationals (pi and e) we can make at least twice as many irrationals as rationals.

Re: Inventor Claims to Have Solved Floating Point Error Problem

#130
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the downside, but how else would he ever get paid for this?

Under a different system that doesn't incentivize holding back global progress for small amounts of individual enrichment. There's a reason Linux and GNU utilities are so massively widely used, and overall they've probably provided billions in economic value. They do that freely, for any human to use, and in fact that's part of their main value proposition. Both were born out of the legal nightmare that was UNIX at t…

I agree with the sentiment but unfortunately we've never found a way to implement real socialism without creating a massive permanent welfare underclass that does nothing and a sclerotic self-serving bureaucracy to support them.

Most people are not little philosopher kings who work to advance a grand vision of life's unfolding in the universe. Most people just want to do the minimum to get by until they can get their next dose of entertainment. I hate to be such a cynic, but I have eyes.

Social democracy (Europe, USA to a lesser extent) is a hybrid that basically works but you still have to make money in that system.

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