A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists • Hacker News Board

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#121

Post by toomanybeersies » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 7:10 AM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #104

toomanybeersies wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 4 way stop is unnecessary, simply requiring one direction to stop would work fine. In New Zealand, with rural grid roads, they usually have 2 way stops (or give-way/yields) which will alternate, so you get priority at one intersection, then stop/give way at the next, and so on.

The article mentions a yield sign, right? I don't think that's enough. There needs to at least be a stop sign. Given the severity of the accidents, I don't think it's unreasonable to just go all out, especially if it really is a rural road with minimal traffic.

You're right. It's been a while since I've driven in the countryside, but I do remember a few of the intersections where visibility isn't so great due to trees etc. having stop signs.

Obviously, human error is a problem too, as the article states.

You should't be driving at 37 mph though an intersection with a yield sign in any case, which I guess is the whole point of the article and the suggestion to turn the intersection into two T-intersections.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#122

Post by Dylan16807 » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 7:11 AM UTC

mrb wrote: post #69

temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #8

There's a lot of math in this article about blind spots and car pillars and whatnot, but a Google Maps Street View appears to show the terrain and brush blocking the view on approach [1][2], making all of this math largely moot. That the drivers in question didn't even so much as slow down for this approach is beyond reckless, aside from the other lawbreaking that followed. The 'Give Way' sign is idiotic, put a Stop…

« make it a 4-way stop » You may be unaware, but 4-way stop signs are very uncommon outside of the US. In fact, in the UK they have always been formally prohibited by the Department for Transport in 2002. As a European driver, I discovered the existence of 4-way stop signs when I moved to the US, and I have always found them dangerous in a counter intuitive way: drivers are so used to 4-way stop intersections, that t…

> rolling stops

What's special about a 4-way stop here? And a rolling stop is good enough to prevent a high-speed collision anyway.

> assuming an intersection with a stop sign is almost always a 4-way stop

Around here there is a good mix and I don't think that happens.

> I prefer the consistency of my home country where every stop is a 2-way stop

Well I personally hate going through 2-way-stop intersections that are over 25mph.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#123

Post by gorbachev » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 7:11 AM UTC

temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #8

There's a lot of math in this article about blind spots and car pillars and whatnot, but a Google Maps Street View appears to show the terrain and brush blocking the view on approach [1][2], making all of this math largely moot. That the drivers in question didn't even so much as slow down for this approach is beyond reckless, aside from the other lawbreaking that followed. The 'Give Way' sign is idiotic, put a Stop…

4-way-stops aren't really 4-way stops. Nobody stops at them.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#124

Post by DaveInTucson » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 7:14 AM UTC

Basic rule of the road: if you haven't made eye contact with someone, you should assume they haven't seen you and don't know you're there.

I mean, they could improve the intersection by making it a full stop, but educating bicyclists not to ride out in front of somebody who will hit you if they don't slow down seems like a good step too.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#125

Post by nraynaud » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 7:18 AM UTC

mrb wrote: post #69

temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #8

There's a lot of math in this article about blind spots and car pillars and whatnot, but a Google Maps Street View appears to show the terrain and brush blocking the view on approach [1][2], making all of this math largely moot. That the drivers in question didn't even so much as slow down for this approach is beyond reckless, aside from the other lawbreaking that followed. The 'Give Way' sign is idiotic, put a Stop…

« make it a 4-way stop » You may be unaware, but 4-way stop signs are very uncommon outside of the US. In fact, in the UK they have always been formally prohibited by the Department for Transport in 2002. As a European driver, I discovered the existence of 4-way stop signs when I moved to the US, and I have always found them dangerous in a counter intuitive way: drivers are so used to 4-way stop intersections, that t…

They do exist in Germany.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#126

Post by emj » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 7:21 AM UTC

DaveInTucson wrote: post #124

Basic rule of the road: if you haven't made eye contact with someone, you should assume they haven't seen you and don't know you're there. I mean, they could improve the intersection by making it a full stop, but educating bicyclists not to ride out in front of somebody who will hit you if they don't slow down seems like a good step too.

No the basic rule is ALWAYS have enough safety marginals so you can handle the unsuspected.

What you are saying is just a round about way to tell bicyclists to always yield for cars. It also has no support if you look at statistics, around here the overwheliming majority of accidents between drivers and bicylists are caused by car/bus/van/truck drivers (70%-85% depending on the situation).

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#127

Post by dajonker » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 7:28 AM UTC

DaveInTucson wrote: post #124

Basic rule of the road: if you haven't made eye contact with someone, you should assume they haven't seen you and don't know you're there. I mean, they could improve the intersection by making it a full stop, but educating bicyclists not to ride out in front of somebody who will hit you if they don't slow down seems like a good step too.

That is indeed the most valuable advice you can give any cyclist. You are very vulnerable and surrounded by fast traveling boxes of death. Don't assume anyone cares about you.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#128

Post by snowwrestler » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 7:30 AM UTC

ajmurmann wrote: post #78

Declanomous wrote: post #45

>We must note that there are two parts to the definition of dangerous driving. Firstly the standard of driving must be “far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver”, and secondly it must be “obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous”. The longer I use the road in any function (cycling, driving, walking, etc), the more I am convinced that the vast majo…

This is true! It's one of the big reasons I cannot wait for self driving cars. I love driving on empty country roads but feel it's impossible to 100% safely drive on busier roads, especially if you also need to read road signs because you don't know where you are going (what's up with US traffic sighs being covered in text btw.? That's obviously a terrible idea!). I came to this conclusion a few weeks after I had got…

If you are approaching a merge with a vehicle ahead of you, the safest thing to do is keep full attention on that vehicle.

If there is a merge lane, you'll have time to change lanes after you've merged.

If there is no merge lane, it's more likely that the vehicle ahead will suddenly stop, and therefore even more important to keep full attention on it.

Drivers often try simultaneously to monitor the vehicle ahead of them, and plan their merge. As you found, it's impossible for a human to do both safely; we can't look in wildly divergent directions at once. So, a person has to prioritize in that situation and the priority has to be 1) the vehicle ahead of you, which might stop, then 2) plan and execute your merge.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#129

Post by Svip » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 7:30 AM UTC

nraynaud wrote: post #125

mrb wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

« make it a 4-way stop » You may be unaware, but 4-way stop signs are very uncommon outside of the US. In fact, in the UK they have always been formally prohibited by the Department for Transport in 2002. As a European driver, I discovered the existence of 4-way stop signs when I moved to the US, and I have always found them dangerous in a counter intuitive way: drivers are so used to 4-way stop intersections, that t…

They do exist in Germany.

Really? I've driven through much of Europe, and I've never seen a 4/all-way stop junction.

Edit: That came across as if I was simply trying to dispute your statement, but I am genuinely curious to see an example of this in Germany.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#130

Post by upofadown » Wed, Jan 10, 2018, 7:40 AM UTC

DaveInTucson wrote: post #124

Basic rule of the road: if you haven't made eye contact with someone, you should assume they haven't seen you and don't know you're there. I mean, they could improve the intersection by making it a full stop, but educating bicyclists not to ride out in front of somebody who will hit you if they don't slow down seems like a good step too.

In other words: the innocent victims of bad driving should just be more careful...

Your comment does bring up something interesting. These days, due to sharply sloped front windows (aerodynamic efficiency) and smoked glass rear windows (where allowed) it is almost impossible to even see a driver of an approaching car, much less make eye contact with them. A unintended consequence of what might seem to be two unrelated things.