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Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater

nytimes.com

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Re: Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater

#121

Post by bogomipz »

blunte wrote: post #93
bogomipz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indonesia actually has a larger GDP than the Netherlands and the largest economy in South East Asia

With 300 million people compared to 18 million in Netherlands, I'm not sure it's worth mentioning. But if your point is that Indonesia is not to be overlooked, then that is quite true.

My point was a response to the parent comment:

>"Sadly Indonesia doesn't have the near limitless resources of its old colonial owner that keeps Amsterdam/Holland from sinking"

When in fact fact it does have the resources to build a Delta Works-like system similar to the Netherlands.

Re: Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater

#122

Post by mistermann »

oldandtired wrote: post #103
DonHopkins wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starting point? I though they were "simple calculations" that you had already easily performed and completely finished correctly, that anyone else should easily be able to do, which proved your point beyond a doubt. Why are you changing the goalposts? Take the five minutes and finish your own homework yourself instead of telling me to do it for you. "Politically Correct" describes the Trump Administration's political…

The starting point is the figures given so for those who cannot or are not able to look up the figures for themselves can do the calculations. It appears that some people are incapable of doing even the easiest of searches for freely available information. IT is obvious that you are thinking that when someone supplies you with the starting point and then encourages you to take the next step that you consider that the…

> The starting point is the figures given so for those who cannot or are not able to look up the figures for themselves can do the calculations. It appears that some people are incapable of doing even the easiest of searches for freely available information.

The figures given where? What's this energy equation or calculation you talk about as if it's common knowledge?

Re: Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater

#123

Post by mistermann »

lostlogin wrote: post #63
BurningFrog wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Climate change is not the reason Jakarta is sinking. That is caused by the Jakartans themselves.

Being under water is a pretty big climate change. To be called ‘climate change’ does the local environment have to change in ways that relate to weather? I’m struggling to find a definition for ‘climate change’ that isn’t hand-wavey, but those I can find all include ‘weather’ in their definition.

Is the weather causing Jakarta to sink?

Re: Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater

#124

Post by kbenson »

mistermann wrote: post #108
kbenson wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with the sentiment that spurious connections should be avoided, I'm not really sure how to make sense of your examples. They seem to apply to a different type of article. This one is about Jakarta, which is anologous to the murder capital for costal problems. That said, while a spurious connection need not be drawn I. The article, it is relevant to compare and Co Trasylol the rate of change with global…

> That said, while a spurious connection need not be drawn I. The article, it is relevant to compare and Co Trasylol the rate of change with global sea level rise Isn't that the very argument though, that the article wasn't just making reference to global warming endangering Jakarta, but was leading the article with saying Jakarta was primarily in trouble because of global warming, when the biggest immediate issue is…

That's all just a setup to make it obvious how large the problem is. It easily overshadows climate change for this one city, and they use climate change to illustrate that.

After the talk about global warming in the first couple of paragraphs, it says this:

But global warming turned out not to be the only culprit behind the historic floods that overran Rasdiono’s bodega and much of the rest of Jakarta in 2007. The problem, it turned out, was that the city itself is sinking.

In fact, Jakarta is sinking faster than any other big city on the planet, faster, even, than climate change is causing the sea to rise — so surreally fast that rivers sometimes flow upstream, ordinary rains regularly swamp neighborhoods and buildings slowly disappear underground, swallowed by the earth. The main cause: Jakartans are digging illegal wells, drip by drip draining the underground aquifers on which the city rests — like deflating a giant cushion underneath it. About 40 percent of Jakarta now lies below sea level.

Re: Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater

#125

Post by DonHopkins »

mistermann wrote: post #122
oldandtired wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The starting point is the figures given so for those who cannot or are not able to look up the figures for themselves can do the calculations. It appears that some people are incapable of doing even the easiest of searches for freely available information. IT is obvious that you are thinking that when someone supplies you with the starting point and then encourages you to take the next step that you consider that the…

> The starting point is the figures given so for those who cannot or are not able to look up the figures for themselves can do the calculations. It appears that some people are incapable of doing even the easiest of searches for freely available information. The figures given where? What's this energy equation or calculation you talk about as if it's common knowledge?

Several people asked him repeatedly to post his numbers and links to his sources, but he continues to stonewall and deflect. He can't answer those questions so he won't, which proves my point that he's not arguing in good faith. That's just how people who subscribe to conspiracy theories predictably behave.

Re: Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater

#126

Post by DonHopkins »

oldandtired wrote: post #105
DonHopkins wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now that your rant has ended, have you ever considered the possibility that there are other reasons you're an anathema and nobody takes you seriously, other than a well organized worldwide conspiracy against you? That would be the scientific thing to do. First it was 5 minutes. Now it's 20 minutes. Why do you keep missing your own deadlines and changing the goalposts more often than you post any citations to scientif…

Now I get it why there was a comment on another thread about a cross thread commenting war with you. This is funny. But let's say, that 20 minutes if you look up the information yourself and you are slow about it, 5 minutes if given the starting point. Of course if you cannot use a calculation device other than pencil/pen and paper (or blackboard and chalk) then it might take you longer. I have the calculations sitti…

As I expected, you're all bluster and no proof, no numbers, no citations, no links. If you're embarrassed to tell us the URL of the conspiracy theory web site where you got your misinformation, then simply don't parrot that misinformation, because it's so untrustworthy that people don't believe you.

Re: Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater

#127

Post by sctb »

DonHopkins wrote: post #126
oldandtired wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now I get it why there was a comment on another thread about a cross thread commenting war with you. This is funny. But let's say, that 20 minutes if you look up the information yourself and you are slow about it, 5 minutes if given the starting point. Of course if you cannot use a calculation device other than pencil/pen and paper (or blackboard and chalk) then it might take you longer. I have the calculations sitti…

As I expected, you're all bluster and no proof, no numbers, no citations, no links. If you're embarrassed to tell us the URL of the conspiracy theory web site where you got your misinformation, then simply don't parrot that misinformation, because it's so untrustworthy that people don't believe you.

Come on, would you please stop being so personally thorny? You know that we're here for better than this.

Re: Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater

#128

Post by chewz »

tim333 wrote: post #101
chewz wrote: post #3

Entire Indonesia is falling apart. Economic development is terribly slow over long term and their main export industries (oil, mining, coal and palm oil - [1]) do not seem to have a future due to underinvestment and drying demand. Quite sad.. Such a beautiful, diverse country and nice people. [1] https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/idn/#Exports

Economic development is not so bad at the moment - about 5% per annum gdp growth, per capita about 3.5%. They are not very organised with their city planning and development though - nearby low lying Singapore has reclaimed loads of land at the same time Jakarta has been sinking. Nyt article on that one https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/20/magazine/how-singapore-is...

5% is sub par, way below potential. Indonesia needs a period of growth up to 15% (like Japan, South Korea or China) to get out of this hole.

Not realistic with one of the worst education systems on the planet [1], non-existing manufacturing sector, human-made environmental disasters[2] and export based mostly on resources mining which is underinvested due to hostility [3][4] to foreign capital.

[1] https://www.oecd.org/pisa/PISA-2015-Indonesia.pdf

[2] https://thediplomat.com/2017/10/making-indonesian-rivers-gre...

[3] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-14/whatever-...

[4] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-11/former-op...

Re: Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater

#129

Post by lostlogin »

mistermann wrote: post #123
lostlogin wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being under water is a pretty big climate change. To be called ‘climate change’ does the local environment have to change in ways that relate to weather? I’m struggling to find a definition for ‘climate change’ that isn’t hand-wavey, but those I can find all include ‘weather’ in their definition.

Is the weather causing Jakarta to sink?

No, but it’s predicted to have a radical climate change.
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