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Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

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Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#121

Post by thesagan »

cletus wrote: post #72

I'm all in favour of treating Internet access as the "fourth utility". It's clear it's become almost as essential to modern life as electricity. I do however find the doom and gloom prognostications around Title II repeal to be incredibly hyperbolic and unhelpful. Fact is, Title II was only introduced in 2015. It's not like repeal in 2017 is going to end the Internet overnight. There are three problems here: 1. The U…

Maybe we should consider "overbuilding" then. Otherwise it just should be a public utility that leases bandwidth to private entities.

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#122

Post by orthecreedence »

jayess wrote: post #117
simplify wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone can create their own website. Not everyone can create their own ISP.

Under NN ISPs were free to censor content. Edit: Downvoting a simple, verifiable fact? Nice. That about sums up this whole charade.

Ok, you just destroyed any of your credibility. I'm not even going to bother arguing with your other posts.

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#123

Post by Afforess »

dominotw wrote: post #108
jimktrains2 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are orthogonal issues. Net neutrality is important regardless of isp options. Not only on principle either, not everywhere will naturally have competition.

> not everywhere will naturally have competition. Many rural areas have only one grocery store.

And this is universally agreed to be a bad situation.[1] Do not play word games.

[1]: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/09/what-happene...

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#124

Post by orthecreedence »

jimktrains2 wrote: post #59
ruffrey wrote: post #57

The real solution to the problem, as I see it, is not even Net Neutrality (though I strongly support Net Neutrality). The solution is to break the monopolistic stranglehold on last-mile internet service. If it were possible to have competition in the last-mile ISP space, then consumers could vote with their wallets and choose those ISPs who supported Net Neutrality. An alternate partial solution would be to force com…

These are orthogonal issues. Net neutrality is important regardless of isp options. Not only on principle either, not everywhere will naturally have competition.

I am a big supporter of municipal fiber/broadband as a means to provide enough market competition such that net neutrality regulation is no longer needed.

You bring up a great point though, even if 100 of the biggest cities have municipal internet infrastructure, there are still lots of areas that wouldn't be covered and could benefit from basic NN regulation.

I don't necessarily think the issues are orthogonal, but I do think basic "don't be a dick" ISP regulations should be in place.

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#125

Post by dominotw »

Afforess wrote: post #123
dominotw wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not everywhere will naturally have competition. Many rural areas have only one grocery store.

And this is universally agreed to be a bad situation.[1] Do not play word games. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/09/what-happene...

I didn't say it wasn't bad. We aren't discussing good and bad. We are discussing a specific situation that requires govt intervention.

I am implying this is a equivalent situation where govt didn't create rules for grocery stores to call all brands of goods equally.

Also, that is not what a word game is.

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#126

Post by jayess »

alsetmusic wrote: post #120
jayess wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far today I've learned that a two year old policy being repealed is anti-gay, will stop women from getting abortions, will stop the black lives matter movement from speaking freely, and will prevent the #metoo movement from growing. Yes, all because the internet before 2015 was completely censored and prevented free speech. If anything, I've seen a significant rise in censorship since NN was passed. The hyperbole…

So far, I count five posts from your account just within this sub thread. Not one has any citations for claims that you make. This undermines the credibility of your arguments. Please back up your statements by pointing to sources that support your interpretation of laws and events so that others can verify them.

If you're hearing this for the first time then you aren't getting your news from someone who is aware of the US Telecom Association v FCC case in which the court of appeals made it clear that because of first amendment problems, the FCC can't prohibit censorship by ISPs.

https://techliberation.com/2017/07/12/heres-why-the-obama-fc...

https://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/internet/opinions.nsf/06F8BFD0...

...and this: https://www.attpublicpolicy.com/consumer-broadband/the-surpr...

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#127

Post by milankragujevic »

cletus wrote: post #90
zer00eyz wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is called an overbuild and is rather wasteful given the capex involved. Wasn't the original phone system vastly over built and that is the reason that things like DSL were possible without having to run new wiring in many homes?

An overbuild in this context would be a whole separate network, which the US typically has in most places, namely the phone network and a cable provider. Nowadays people tend to exclude the phone network from discussions of broadband as ADSL speeds are inferior to cable (let alone fiber). Phone lines had a filter on them to only pass through voice range frequencies. It's why you could hear the sounds made by a modem…

fyi over VDSL2 you can get 25/2 at 1200m of copper.

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#128

Post by Afforess »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #67
ruffrey wrote: post #57

The real solution to the problem, as I see it, is not even Net Neutrality (though I strongly support Net Neutrality). The solution is to break the monopolistic stranglehold on last-mile internet service. If it were possible to have competition in the last-mile ISP space, then consumers could vote with their wallets and choose those ISPs who supported Net Neutrality. An alternate partial solution would be to force com…

We've already got cellular data service that's much better than the first DSL line my family got. That stranglehold is weaker than you might think.

If cellular data services were not capped (or throttled down, past an imaginary line the phone company rarely shares), then you might have an argument. As it stands, 4g phone service is only a replacement for cable or dsl services for the rarest of individuals. Windows software updates alone will blow you through your cap.

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#129

Post by jayess »

orthecreedence wrote: post #122
jayess wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under NN ISPs were free to censor content. Edit: Downvoting a simple, verifiable fact? Nice. That about sums up this whole charade.

Ok, you just destroyed any of your credibility. I'm not even going to bother arguing with your other posts.

It's not me, it's the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit that you have a quibble with, then.

Look up US Telecom Association v FCC (2016)

https://techliberation.com/2017/07/12/heres-why-the-obama-fc...

https://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/internet/opinions.nsf/06F8BFD0...

What? The break the internet movement didn't mention that part? That censorship by ISPs was ok under net neutrality?

https://www.attpublicpolicy.com/consumer-broadband/the-surpr...

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#130

Post by Afforess »

dominotw wrote: post #125
Afforess wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is universally agreed to be a bad situation.[1] Do not play word games. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/09/what-happene...

I didn't say it wasn't bad. We aren't discussing good and bad. We are discussing a specific situation that requires govt intervention. I am implying this is a equivalent situation where govt didn't create rules for grocery stores to call all brands of goods equally. Also, that is not what a word game is.

False dichotomies and appeal to the middle are absolutely types of word games. I am sick and tired of "moderate"-sounding weasley arguments that excuse corporatocracy and cronyism as "free competition".

There's only one grocery store in many towns, because the moment another chain opens, the dominant one lowers prices to below what the market can bear. The dominant chain takes temporary losses to drive competition out of business, then raises prices sky-high and returns to business as usual. This exact behavior occurs in many broadband markets.

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