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South Korea considers cryptocurrency tax

reuters.com

121–130 of 231 posts

Re: South Korea considers cryptocurrency tax

#121
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bitcoin & cryptos are financial weapons of mass destruction. You need to explain this. Many of us just think it's a good replacement for gold and other precious metals. Is gold a "financial weapon of mass destruction"?

No, it's a "barbarous relic" in the words of Keynes, which is why it's not really used as currency any more. There are real reasons why the world went off the gold standard.

Yes, because governments want to print fiat money to finance their debt. It has a nice side effect of moving more money into spending / investment, because inflation eats savings. Instead of gold, people buy homes and stock.

Re: South Korea considers cryptocurrency tax

#122
post #52
post #8

> Australia’s central bank governor Philip Lowe warned on Wednesday the fascination with the assets felt like a “speculative mania.” Just curious, what is it about speculation that has govs so worried? It’s quite clear at this point Bitcoin has grown far too large and most are now speculating on its value as a store so what benefit is there to step in, attempt to regulate it, and risk its undoing? To me, I’m reminded…

Worst case scenario: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_Civil_War "a period of civil disorder in Albania in 1997, sparked by Ponzi scheme failures. The government was toppled and more than 2,000 people were killed" .. "By January 1997, Albanian citizens, who had lost a total of $1.2 billion—the population being only three million—took their protest to the streets" There are now reports of people taking out mortga…

I call FUD on the reports of people going into deep debt to buy bitcoin.

Sure there will always be some people that do this. And it makes for a good story, so the media reports it. But I don't think this is something that is happening in significant numbers.

Re: South Korea considers cryptocurrency tax

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet this is confusing to me since presumably we're speaking of older individuals. Young individuals are, generally, still earning money and so they are already sustaining their own livelihood regardless of their savings (or [sudden] lack thereof). Plenty of young people are easily to dupe with get-rich-schemes too. And earning money is not that helpful, especially on the poorer end - I mean, imagine that right now…

You have a contradiction in your logic. Poor people working "regular, shitty, low-paying high-demand jobs" do not have savings. The numbers may vary somewhat by country but here [1] they are for America. 85% have less than $10k. 50% have less than $1k. 34% have $0. And there's probably going to be a pretty good correlation with savings and income. The 15th percentile in household income is about $120,000. Interesting…

We were not talking exclusively, or even in particular, about the US, though.

Re: South Korea considers cryptocurrency tax

#124
post #44
post #8

> Australia’s central bank governor Philip Lowe warned on Wednesday the fascination with the assets felt like a “speculative mania.” Just curious, what is it about speculation that has govs so worried? It’s quite clear at this point Bitcoin has grown far too large and most are now speculating on its value as a store so what benefit is there to step in, attempt to regulate it, and risk its undoing? To me, I’m reminded…

When a bubble bursts, it's not just about some people, but it brings down the whole economy. I can't believe people have already forgotten what CDO has done to this economy. Bitcoin & cryptos are financial weapons of mass destruction. Any responsible government ought to outright ban them all already.

> I can't believe people have already forgotten what CDO has done to this economy.

Collateralized Debt Obligations - every word in the acronym screams credit. A CDO is an instrument that guarantees you a cash flow based on debt. A guarantee for you is an obligation for someone else. Chains of these guarantees and obligations is what enabled the housing bubble. The breaking of these chains caused the Great Recession.

As far as we know, the crypto bubble is not highly leveraged. One Bitcoin is worth one Bitcoin. It could trade for $1 or $1 million, but you are never obligated to take the offered price as a buyer or seller. Yes, it's complex. But it is technically complex, not relationships-obligations complex.

Re: South Korea considers cryptocurrency tax

#125
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now we found a way to create programmable: trust, value, scarcity and incentives. I've seen variations of this argument repeated often. It sounds sexy but then when you probe it's hard to nail down something big enough we can't currently do that becomes possible. Financial markets are already very sophisticated and if anything retail investors are still not using the great products out there as much as they should (…

I think the major appeal is in what can't be done. Did you know, for instance, that in the past ~8 years we nearly quadrupled the US monetary base? [1] What are your opinion on the economic decisions that led to this? The Fed themselves seem to believe it has failed to achieve what they set out to do which was to increase inflation, and to indirectly increase the real GDP. Here are a couple of interesting articles. […

I personally suspect it's a really bad idea to replace monetary policy with a fixed deflationary currency. But independently of that people should not be holding currencies as assets for more than very short term needs and emergency funds so if the comparison is Cryptocurrency vs Dollar then cryptocurrencies have a very long way to go before they're even half as good as fiat currencies for day to day transactions (nobody accepts them, they fluctuate too much, etc). If the comparison is Cryptocurrency vs Assets then I'd rather use as a store of value actual scarce and useful assets like companies and land than things that are useless by design like gold and bitcoin. If central bankers are untrustworthy is not really relevant for any of the two discussions.

Re: South Korea considers cryptocurrency tax

#126
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now we found a way to create programmable: trust, value, scarcity and incentives. I've seen variations of this argument repeated often. It sounds sexy but then when you probe it's hard to nail down something big enough we can't currently do that becomes possible. Financial markets are already very sophisticated and if anything retail investors are still not using the great products out there as much as they should (…

Hundreds of years ago, you could transfer money across the world just like you can now. It would just take having the right connections and a lot of time. Does that mean our global banking system is unnecessary? Bitcoin et al unlock a potential economic powerhouse the likes of which can be comparable to the internet. Just because you can do mostly everything that blockchain tech provides without one, doesn't mean it…

>Just because you can do mostly everything that blockchain tech provides without one, doesn't mean it isn't incredibly valuable.

If you can already do everything that it provides that's pretty much the definition of not having any extra value. This is just extending the hand waving. What transactions will you be able to do with cryptocurrencies you can't already do with the modern financial system?

Re: South Korea considers cryptocurrency tax

#127
post #72
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now we found a way to create programmable: trust, value, scarcity and incentives. I've seen variations of this argument repeated often. It sounds sexy but then when you probe it's hard to nail down something big enough we can't currently do that becomes possible. Financial markets are already very sophisticated and if anything retail investors are still not using the great products out there as much as they should (…

> index funds are huge and yet most people still prepare very poorly for retirement Retail financial products are only just now entering the internet era. At least in UK, before 2017 we did not have Vanguard, Monzo, Revolut. Nutmeg was less known. Older banks and investment accounts are still relatively hard to use via the internet (e.g. requiring ancient identity verification methods) and understand for unexperience…

>I think the goal should be to stop using any form of cash as a store of value

No one should use any currency as a store of value, use actual productive assets. And your argument that we should make financial products enter the Internet era is completely true. I just don't see where the cryptocurrencies help.

Re: South Korea considers cryptocurrency tax

#128
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you meant from china to the rest of the world. The opposite direction isn’t very difficult to achieve via FDI or a simple bank transfer.

I'd suppose both flows exist. * Chinese energy producers and miners get cash into China from bitcoins they create and sell. * Chinese (early) buyers of bitcoin sell their coins in the West for cash stored in Western banks , or turned into other Western assets. I suppose the second stream is wider, but the first is not to be neglected, too.

They don’t need bitcoin for the first stream, just for the second. Besides, there is plenty of excess capital floating around in china anyways, they don’t need many initial investment from the outside.

Re: South Korea considers cryptocurrency tax

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be enormously speculative and consider what might happen if cryptocurrencies do not collapse. The implications of this are interesting. They would end up being a worldwide asset that hedges against pretty much everything except worldwide economic collapse. That's sounding like the makings of the next reserve currency. What would be the implications of this for nations that currently benefit from the current wor…

National currencies are not really in risk. Suppose that bitcoin or similar are used as currency in practice (that it's very far of happening, by the way). Even if you are able to do all your operations in a cryptocurrency, you will need to pay taxes. Governments only accept their own currency, so, you need to get it to pay taxes, so, demand of national currency is going to exist always. >> "economic vessels like nat…

The people of Zimbabwe and Venezuela appear to disagree with your sentiment that national currencies aren't risky.

Your notion that crypto fans can't separate economy from politics doesn't seem right. Re-read the Bitcoin genesis block. Bitcoin began because of bullshit by bankers and barristers. Politics is the reason for Bitcoins existence.

Re: South Korea considers cryptocurrency tax

#130
Is Bitcoin “legit?” Does it have any purpose or value? I think it does, and here are several lenses through which to see cryptocurrencies, that explain why:

As an investment: The world is already comfortable with “hot potato” investments that derive their value from the fact someone else will buy it later (ie non-dividend, non-voting stock). As long as a critical mass of investors continues to see it as legitimate, it will be.

As a way to avoid hyperinflation: Central banks can print money seemingly arbitrarily, diluting buying power. Cryptocurrencies present an alternative, where growth of money supply is constrained by known and predictable rules. What is inflation in the US, really? Is the stock market going up because real world wealth is increasing, or is it just printed money flooding into assets classes instead of “basket of goods” used to measure inflation?

As an alternative currency not tied to any particular central bank: The value of a currency is ultimately derived from the real-world value controlled by the individuals who believe in and use that currency. Most currencies have their basis in communities defined by countries and borders — with cryptocurrency, you introduce a new community, where the value of it is ultimately derived from the real-world value controlled by all the individuals who are willing to conduct business in that cryptocurrency.

As a check against authority in future with no cash: In a cashless future, there is great potential for abuse of power if all transactions must go through a central authority: 100% visibility and power to interfere with all private transactions of the population. Do you want to give someone power to see every little transaction you make, with power to stop it if they don’t like what you are doing? In this cashless future, trust-less peer to peer digital currency is essential.

As a way to diversify away from assets based in your own country’s currency: cryptocurrencies offer a relatively accessible and easy way to diversify away from holding all your wealth in one currency. To hold a certain currency is to bet in that country relative to world. For America, there’s a bet on how the USD will track against other currencies in decades to come. Is china gonna unpeg the yuan further and further and make a gun for the number 1 spot? Has America invested in the infrastructure, education, large scale coordination, and energy capabilities to stay on top not just in terms of dollars on paper, but real world value that underlies real wealth? Crypto is just one way to place a bet based on a thesis around this.

All this is based on the fundamental question: what is money? Money can essentially be seen as a “share” of the entirety of the worlds resources. These “shares” give you authority to allocate resources, such as food, materials, and other people. We all need a base level of “shares” to allocate the food and shelter we need to survive. Most big businesses use their “shares” to pursue one thing: getting more “shares”. And, your “share’s” constantly get diluted. No matter how many shares exist, in the end they only act as a distribution mechanism for the actual resources that exist. In this light, crypto is just as real as anything else; its just another made-up concept we use to coordinate society, just like traditional money.

What worries me most about cryptocurrency right now, is the underlying cryptography, and how long that will last. Will there be fork to new method in time?

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