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Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#121

Post by dr_win »

lawn wrote: post #65

You are both right and wrong. There have been multiple attempts at scaling Bitcoin on-chain by raising the blocksize. They have all been unsuccessful because they have been blocked by the Core developers and their supporters using censorship, troll campaigns, ddos and abuse. It's not due to technical reasons but because they want to redirect scaling off-chain, using technology they coveniently develop. The very same…

Maybe you are right and it would be technically feasible to bump the block size limit 2x, then 2x again and maybe later 2x again... Basically every time people demand extra cheap block space for their transactions someone would have to lead the charge and coordinate a hard-fork (probably with a lot of drama). But then we (as a community) would set a dangerous moral hazard there and be like the U.S. Senate increasing the debt ceiling limit every year or so.

For reference this is a year-old article from Gregory Maxwell, a prominent Bitcoin Core developer, explaining his view: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/438hx0/a_trip_to_t...

I think Greg is right. And at least this scaling situation puts a lot of pressure on Bitcoin blockchain and accelerates whole ecosystem to quickly develop and deploy layer-2 solutions like Lighting Networks or parallel 2-way-pegged solutions like sidechains. Which is in my opinion a good thing even for the price of hampering Bitcoin growth in short-term.

And from technical point it is beneficial that Bitcoin Cash folks forked the chain and will experiment with their own scaling solutions. It will be interesting to watch future technical developments on both sides.

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#122

Post by jcranmer »

laurus wrote: post #96
jstanley wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The value of the US dollar comes in part from our ability to pay taxes with it (and perhaps ultimately from the US military). It doesn't come from either of those things. It only has value because people believe it does, otherwise they would all try to get rid of it as quickly as possible.

> It doesn't come from either of those things. Yes it does. You have to pay your taxes in U.S. dollars, so people have to use it. That's one of the purposes of taxes: so that the government-issued currency is used.

That you have to pay taxes to the US gov't in USD, and you have to treat all transactions as if they were denominated in USD, gives it intrinsic value. But if the US gov't were to print USD indefinitely and destroy people's expectations of its value, its value would correspondingly collapse--aka hyperinflation.

If you want a challenge, try explaining why the Somali dollar still held its value despite being a fiat currency that lacked a government to back up its value for well over a decade.

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#123

Post by eternalcode »

ignoramous wrote: post #116
jen729w wrote: post #4

IMHO (because to claim to "know" anything about how this is all going to turn out is to be a fraud), Bitcoin is the proof of concept for this whole crypto thing. It was the first. It was the genesis idea. But good lord, do we think it's the actual solution? What would be the odds? I imagine that Bitcoin will play its part as the public face of the blockchain revolution, but something else - or many other somethings -…

> Bitcoin is not the technically best solution in this incredibly exciting field. It's not even close. Just curious here: What would you say are technically better solutions than bitcoin?

that is a tough question as many other alt-coins have yet to be challenge by the huge volume that btc/eth experience. Some might say litecoin for one.

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#124

Post by wmf »

keith_analog wrote: post #112

What would concern me is, for example, if the cost of a transaction grows faster than the price of a given bitcoin in dollars. If that trend would continue for too long, then I suppose my bitcoin could get trapped in the system for an indefinite period of time, that is, from the time I no longer can justify moving the bitcoin because of high transaction fees to the time I can. It seems that this situation suggests a…

That has already happened as transaction fees have increased from less than 1 cent to $5.

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#125

Post by etherael »

gruez wrote: post #80
lawn wrote: post #65

You are both right and wrong. There have been multiple attempts at scaling Bitcoin on-chain by raising the blocksize. They have all been unsuccessful because they have been blocked by the Core developers and their supporters using censorship, troll campaigns, ddos and abuse. It's not due to technical reasons but because they want to redirect scaling off-chain, using technology they coveniently develop. The very same…

>It's not due to technical reasons but because they want to redirect scaling off-chain, using technology they coveniently develop. But how does that benefit them? Lightning network is open source, so it's not like they can make money on transaction fees.

https://mobile.twitter.com/adam3us/status/923309367260274688

Good reason to believe the entire thing was simply the old system attempting to hijack bitcoin.

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/7fsbw5/divorcing_the_s...

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#126

Post by Tepix »

badminton1 wrote: post #16

The idea is that bitcoin is decentralized. But common sense tells you that by having an append only system, eventually you will need a supercomputer to deal with the blockchain. Naturally, the blockchain will have to be hierarchical, or find ways to compact it.

This is a mostly solved issue.

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#127

Post by badloginagain »

eternalcode wrote: post #123
ignoramous wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bitcoin is not the technically best solution in this incredibly exciting field. It's not even close. Just curious here: What would you say are technically better solutions than bitcoin?

that is a tough question as many other alt-coins have yet to be challenge by the huge volume that btc/eth experience. Some might say litecoin for one.

I also like litecoin for the purely selfish reasons of it still being (relatively) cheap. BTC prices are out of my ability to play, and most ICO's are derivatives of 'ScamCoin'. LiteCoin is one of the few options it feels I can still get in on the action with a purpose driven coin with a strong/transparent dev team.

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#128

Post by Retric »

tenaciousDaniel wrote: post #78
jen729w wrote: post #4

IMHO (because to claim to "know" anything about how this is all going to turn out is to be a fraud), Bitcoin is the proof of concept for this whole crypto thing. It was the first. It was the genesis idea. But good lord, do we think it's the actual solution? What would be the odds? I imagine that Bitcoin will play its part as the public face of the blockchain revolution, but something else - or many other somethings -…

This is my thought as well, and I don't understand why it isn't more commonly stated. The sheer chances that the very first implementation of this technology turns out to not only be viable for long-term success, but is actually adopted as such, seems extraordinarily low. There's what I call the "football" effect. The player jumps on the football after a fumble, and while he's the first to grab it, there's a handful…

Their are a few examples where the first impomentaion adapts and wins. However, email needed to change over time and adapt, but Bitcoin is very resistant to change which is going to kill it.

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#129

Post by whiskyant »

jen729w wrote: post #4

IMHO (because to claim to "know" anything about how this is all going to turn out is to be a fraud), Bitcoin is the proof of concept for this whole crypto thing. It was the first. It was the genesis idea. But good lord, do we think it's the actual solution? What would be the odds? I imagine that Bitcoin will play its part as the public face of the blockchain revolution, but something else - or many other somethings -…

You do realize bitcoin is constantly evolving and can change its code right? If another crypto creates a better scaling tech, bitcoin can incorporate that idea.

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#130

Post by codecamper »

runeks wrote: post #59
rdiddly wrote: post #21

I don't think you're wrong and there are other problems too. Widespread Bitcoin adoption would require more energy for mining coins than the entire world can currently produce.

Bitcoin has no particular requirement for energy, it’s an arbitrage involving the prices of three components: 1) a bitcoin 2) a KWh of power 3) mining hardware. As long as the value of newly minted bitcoins makes it profitable to buy mining hardware and burn off power to earn them, the amount of power used by bitcoin miners will increase. So, way before Bitcoin miners consume all of the world’s energy, either energy…

And a kWh of power is of course done with coal. How pathetic.
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