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House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

reuters.com

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Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#121

Post by vkou »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #103
vkou wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany, you'd be paying $6.14 tax per gallon.

Ok, you get taxed more on fuel. Good for you. There's starving kids in Africa. They have it worse than kids in the US but they aren't more than tangentially relevant to a discussion on hunger in the US. Your European fuel taxes are of similar relevance to this discussion about fuel and transportation taxes/subsidies in the US. 6.14/gal a wonderful example of an amount of taxation I never want to see on a gallon of an…

> I'm convinced that we can reach a far more efficient way to implement carrots and sticks.

What dollar value do you assign to the human and economic cost that any one pound of CO2 will produce over the next century? How did you come by this number?

If you haven't, then you're just going with your gut feel. Gut feel is a terrible way to judge whether or not policy is good, or not.

What if the economic cost of burning that gallon of gas is $10? Would applying that externality to the price at the pump still churn your stomach?

If you don't want to assign a greater or equal cost to it, then the most efficient solution for the market will be to keep polluting, causing net harm. Robbing Peter to fill Paul's gas tank.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#122

Post by closeparen »

rukittenme wrote: post #37

I have a lot to say on this... > Critics say electric vehicle buyers tend to be wealthier than average Americans and do nod need subsidies. I love how this gets buried at the bottom after an avalanche of criticism. A free $7500 for the rich and an additional $7500 in revenue for manufacturers. Say what you want about the American political system, it is a master class in manipulation. "But the environment!" Assuming…

Come on. $100k vs $107k cars are a disingenuous comparison. They turn $30k cars (entry level luxury) into $23k cars (middle class, right in there with the Civic, Camry, Corolla, Accord, etc). If this is your objection, let’s phase it out for cars over a price threshold.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#123

Post by ellyagg »

thomaskcr wrote: post #109
Cshelton wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When taking in account of direct and indirect subsidies, see this IMF report: http://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/2015/09/28/04/53/sonew07... There are many other reports by many other groups... Also consider the costs of using tax payer money to pay for/subsidies infastructure/reasearch in the fossil fuel industry.

From that report: > The bulk of energy subsidies in most countries are due to undercharging for domestic environmental damage I understand it's an accepted part of the word subsidy but it always feels dishonest when people treat "lost revenue" and actual money given to industries the same and then combine them into a huge number that is 95% theoretical losses that are difficult to quantify.

Right, argumentative, cloudy, and political. If that's what is meant by "dropping the subsidies", then the simple sounding solution actually hides all the complexity of the problem.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#124

Post by colemannugent »

rukittenme wrote: post #37

I have a lot to say on this... > Critics say electric vehicle buyers tend to be wealthier than average Americans and do nod need subsidies. I love how this gets buried at the bottom after an avalanche of criticism. A free $7500 for the rich and an additional $7500 in revenue for manufacturers. Say what you want about the American political system, it is a master class in manipulation. "But the environment!" Assuming…

Continuing the theme of governments raising taxes that disproportionately affect the poor in the name of the environment: California's new gas tax is stupid.

In what is already one of the most expensive states to live in the per gallon gas tax increased by 40% on Wednesday. That means that the total state and federal taxes come out to about 77 cents [1] per gallon. While 77 cents doesn't seem like much, consider that the average cost per gallon of gas in California is around $3.10 [2], which puts the effective tax rate at around 25%.

A 25% tax rate is absolutely insane in a country where you need a car to get around. Take into account the 53 cents per mile the IRS uses as its estimator of the cost of driving a vehicle [3], the average one-way commute distance is about 8 miles [4], and the average fuel economy for California drivers is around 24 miles per gallon [5], this works out to about $10 per day in just regular vehicle expenses, or around $300 per month.

For the poor in California this is just another example of how expensive it can be to be poor.

[1]: http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/energy-green/sd...

[2]: http://www.californiagasprices.com/Prices_Nationally.aspx

[3]: https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/2017-standard-mileage-rates-for...

[4]: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/here-are-the-typical-commu...

[5]: http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-cars-fuel-eco...

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#125

Post by dangoor »

cptskippy wrote: post #120
RayVR wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on EPA estimates of global greenhouse gas emissions, converting every US passenger vehicle to electric, assuming those vehicles are then driven for at least seven years, the net reduction to global emissions is roughly 1%.

How'd you come up with that number? The US accounts for 15% of emissions and personal transportation accounts for 1/5th of US emissions. That accounts for 3% annually.

Perhaps that accounts for our electricity generation being coal-based?

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#126

Post by fhood »

koolba wrote: post #96
evo_9 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically this might have been true in the past when your only EV option was a Tesla; however the Chevy Bolt is selling like mad, the Chevy Volt continues to sell well and you have quite a few choices either out or coming to market in early 2018, including the VW E-Golf, Hyundai Ioniq, Kia Soul EV to name just a few that are under 30k. Removing the EV Credit now makes no sense; perhaps a better approach is to limit…

> Ironically this might have been true in the past when your only EV option was a Tesla; however the Chevy Bolt is selling like mad, the Chevy Volt continues to sell well and you have quite a few choices either out or coming to market in early 2018, including the VW E-Golf, Hyundai Ioniq, Kia Soul EV to name just a few that are under 30k. IIRC to get the full $7,500 it needs to be a full electric with a battery large…

If your tax bill is only 5,000 then you probably shouldn't buy a new car.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#127

Post by dogruck »

akhilcacharya wrote: post #105
dogruck wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, those are cars for the wealthy. Most people cannot even afford a car. If they can, they’re probably not buying a new car. And, if they do buy a new car, they’re probably looking to spend close to $20,000.

My parents just spent a little over $20k on a Leaf. Not exactly a Bentley.

Congratulations, your parents are relatively wealthy.

And, did they buy a new one? MSRP is $30,680: https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/versions-specs/...

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#128

Post by maxerickson »

colemannugent wrote: post #124
rukittenme wrote: post #37

I have a lot to say on this... > Critics say electric vehicle buyers tend to be wealthier than average Americans and do nod need subsidies. I love how this gets buried at the bottom after an avalanche of criticism. A free $7500 for the rich and an additional $7500 in revenue for manufacturers. Say what you want about the American political system, it is a master class in manipulation. "But the environment!" Assuming…

Continuing the theme of governments raising taxes that disproportionately affect the poor in the name of the environment: California's new gas tax is stupid. In what is already one of the most expensive states to live in the per gallon gas tax increased by 40% on Wednesday. That means that the total state and federal taxes come out to about 77 cents [1] per gallon. While 77 cents doesn't seem like much, consider that…

Is my math right that the $0.77 per gallon in taxes comes out to about $10.50?

Seems the bigger driver of the $300 is the need to rely on a car.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#129

Post by stusmall »

smileysteve wrote: post #9
stusmall wrote: post #4

I mean it's kind of the point of tax reform. You eliminate deductions that only wealthier people benefit from and lower the rate over all. You'll see a lot of deductions go away that are good on their own but in aggregate with all the other deductions give us such a massively complex system.

> You eliminate deductions that only wealthier people benefit The Nissan Leaf and Chevy Volt aren't particularly upper class cars. Neither is the Model 3.

That's why I said wealthier. As a lot of people pointed out new cars, especially electric, are still something bought by people earning more than average. These aren't yachts but they are still target higher end come breaks.

Even with the tax breaks that include middle class earners benefit the rich more just by the nature of how deductions work. The rich tax payer would have had this deducted income taxed at a higher bracket than the middle tax payer would thus a bigger absolute savings on their tax bill.

Re: House Republicans propose to scrap $7,500 electric vehicle credit

#130

Post by akhilcacharya »

dogruck wrote: post #127
akhilcacharya wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents just spent a little over $20k on a Leaf. Not exactly a Bentley.

Congratulations, your parents are relatively wealthy. And, did they buy a new one? MSRP is $30,680: https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/versions-specs/...

New, yes, $30k no. electric utility provided a significant deal. In some states you can apparently get the 2016 model for $15k out the door now.
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