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The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

blogs.scientificamerican.com

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Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#121

Post by dragonwriter »

bkeroack wrote: post #28

Coming Apart by Charles Murray is an incredibly important book that goes into detail about this including immense amounts of statistical data. The core of American civilization is based on Judeo-Christian values and the fact that faith in those are rotting away is directly leading to slow-motion social collapse. I understand the average HN reader is probably areligious (the book goes into the class dynamics of why th…

> The core of American civilization is based on Judeo-Christian values and the fact that faith in those are rotting away is directly leading to slow-motion social collapse.

Insofar as the first part is true, those broadly held, super-ecumenical values aren't what belief is eroding in; the theological, cosmological, and eschatological beliefs and associated ritual is what people are abandoning, not values that are so broad as to be both foundational to “American civilization” (itself something of a parochial myth) and validly described as “Judeo-Christian”.

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#122

Post by dragonwriter »

Tenobrus wrote: post #26
fourfaces wrote: post #4

Materialism, theism and atheism are all religions.

You're using the fact that all are ideologies to attempt to smuggle in the connotations we have with "religion" and apply those to atheism and materialism. Examine those connotations directly and you'll see they don't sensically apply. For example: religion requires faith without evidence, materialism and atheism do not. Almost all religions make demands on the actions of their adherents, atheism almost by definition…

> For example: religion requires faith without evidence

No, it doesn't.

OTOH, it does require that “evidence” be understood more broadly than just empiricism.

> Almost all religions make demands on the actions of their adherents, atheism almost by definition does not

Specific atheisms often do, though atheism as such (like theism as such) does not.

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#123

Post by baldfat »

dang wrote: post #117
baldfat wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buried because it is off topic for Hacker News and causes drama.

It's not off topic; it's intellectually interesting. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Your 'causes drama' point is closer to the mark. For whatever reason, the community here is less able to discuss religion substantively than almost anything else. This shows up not only as toxic flamewar-style comments but also as an upsurge in bad jokes and shallow quips.

Politics and Religion.

I have my degree in Theology and I ran for Political Office so I guess no one to talk to :)

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#124

Post by jordanpg »

rwcarlsen wrote: post #120
jordanpg wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll acknowledge the hard work and kindness of (some) religious people if you'll acknowledge that we are talking about beliefs that are very obviously not true. This isn't mean to be sarcastic, it's a statement about the special treatment that religion gets. Some of us simply do not agree that the best approach to this is to hold hands and discuss it like adults -- for all of the hard work and kindness you mention, t…

> ...that are very obviously not true This is a sweeping generalization both about what religious beliefs are (for hundreds of religions) and also about how countless individuals uniquely interpret/feel about/understand those beliefs. I think that is very reductionist and incorrect position to hold. Is the bad stuff because of religion - or is it because humans ? Humans have built up religion to what it is after all.…

Well, they are very obviously not true, as obvious as any other supernatural claim that is patent nonsense. My point is exactly that religion gets special treatment in this particular context.

Sure, we can debate the good/bad stuff, but only after it's acknowledged that the supernatural claims are false. After all, if the supernatural claims are true, that pretty much settles all the rest of the questions concerning religion.

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#126

Post by [deleted] »

dang wrote: post #116
dukoid wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People can do good without attached irrationality. In particular, I think no kid should be forced to take part in any of this. I found it greatly disturbing as a kid that adult people / school teachers who should know better and / or should serve as role models would present irrational activities like praying as if they were perfectly normal. Do what you want, but please keep people like me out of it until they are o…

This crosses into religious flamewar, which is not allowed on HN, including in threads about religion. Please don't post like this again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[deleted]

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#127

Post by dukoid »

jordanpg wrote: post #75
rwcarlsen wrote: post #25

I just wanted to come here and show some respect for religious communities that work very hard to help people and the world become a better place. On hacker news, I would hope we can be rational and respectful about beliefs that are important to (many real and good) people. There are many religious people/beliefs that I agree with - and many I disagree with - we can discuss that like adults. But sarcastic, unkind rem…

I'll acknowledge the hard work and kindness of (some) religious people if you'll acknowledge that we are talking about beliefs that are very obviously not true. This isn't mean to be sarcastic, it's a statement about the special treatment that religion gets. Some of us simply do not agree that the best approach to this is to hold hands and discuss it like adults -- for all of the hard work and kindness you mention, t…

For instance, in my opinion, no kid should be pressured to take part in any kind of religious activities it does not feel comfortable with. I found this disturbing as a kid in a way I can't describe adequately here. If a religion involves this, it is not making the world a "better place" for me.

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#128

Post by zzalpha »

rwcarlsen wrote: post #25

I just wanted to come here and show some respect for religious communities that work very hard to help people and the world become a better place. On hacker news, I would hope we can be rational and respectful about beliefs that are important to (many real and good) people. There are many religious people/beliefs that I agree with - and many I disagree with - we can discuss that like adults. But sarcastic, unkind rem…

I just wanted to come here and show some respect for religious communities that work very hard to help people and the world become a better place.

Why specifically religious communities? As long as someone is doing good in the world, what difference does it make? People deserve respect so long as they themselves respect others.

That said, if they provide charity or other services while pushing their religious beliefs on folks, as is often the case for proselytizing religions (I'm looking at you World Vision), then they lose my respect. My spiritual beliefs should not be held hostage in exchange for charity.

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#129

Post by zzalpha »

CompelTechnic wrote: post #57

I welcome the general trend behind this, but I think that we are also losing something valuable with the general de-religioning of the US. I often volunteer with Habitat for Humanity, and I find that the (majority religious) people there are kind, generous, and overall awesome people. I ascribe a lot of this to their religious convictions. It's also possible though that I'm getting a selection bias of the kindest Chr…

It's also possible though that I'm getting a selection bias of the kindest Christians who are the type that not only go to church but go volunteer with Habitat because the church is doing it

Yes. You are.

I also think that there are relatively few institutions that promote virtuous, pro-social behavior with the effective and long-term viewpoint that a church can.

You mean, aside from, you know, the family unit, schools, the boy and girl scouts (yes, I realize there's a light religious component to those organizations but they are not, themselves, religious institutions), secular charity organizations...

Frankly, being blunt, your entire comment reeks of bias against atheists... which shouldn't be too surprising. In the US, atheists and rapists are seen as equally trustworthy.

The idea that a secular society can't "promote virtuous, pro-social behavior with the effective and long-term viewpoint" is patently absurd. And that religion unquestionably does so is equally absurd.

It's ironic, as Canada and Europe are far less religious than the US, yet far more "virtuous", providing far more in terms of support for the poor, the elderly, and the family unit, among other things.

But yes... religion, clearly that's the way to build a virtuous society...

Re: The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

#130

Post by threatofrain »

rwcarlsen wrote: post #120
jordanpg wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll acknowledge the hard work and kindness of (some) religious people if you'll acknowledge that we are talking about beliefs that are very obviously not true. This isn't mean to be sarcastic, it's a statement about the special treatment that religion gets. Some of us simply do not agree that the best approach to this is to hold hands and discuss it like adults -- for all of the hard work and kindness you mention, t…

> ...that are very obviously not true This is a sweeping generalization both about what religious beliefs are (for hundreds of religions) and also about how countless individuals uniquely interpret/feel about/understand those beliefs. I think that is very reductionist and incorrect position to hold. Is the bad stuff because of religion - or is it because humans ? Humans have built up religion to what it is after all.…

The core argument here is that religious people cannot discuss the falsity of their beliefs, but that's a problem in discussing other things, because religious people don't constrain their beliefs to the purely metaphysical.

Can prayer help with stroke or not? Is Israel special to God's plans or not? Are other religions corrupting the souls of children with false idols or not? Does God generally regulate the affairs of the earth, including its ecology and climate, or not? Does God have prescriptions on medicine and biological contamination or not?

Since the confidence of existence in supernatural interaction means that secular frameworks are ignorant, how are spiritually different groups supposed to discuss these issues?

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